Paper Cartridge for Trade Guns??

[Smokey Plainsman]

I’ve got two trade guns, one a Carolina type and the other a Northwest gun.

I’m curious if we have any historical account of musket style paper cartridges ever being used in trade guns for warfare? It would seem since they were used by the armies of the period that they would have proven very useful to volunteers etc. who were using trade guns such as the Natives during the French & Indian war.

But did they ever? Any historical record of this happening?

Thanks!

 

[IanH]

Good question.

 

[Brokennock]

I’m curious if we have any historical account of musket style paper cartridges ever being used in trade guns for warfare?

Hmmmm....
Directly? Something flat out stating, "I pulled a paper cartridge and loaded my trade gun," or something to that effect? Not that I can recall ever reading.

However. I have read accounts of men volunteering for local militias or joining various local campaigns and bringing the gun they had, whatever it was, which would include trade guns. And, I have read of volunteers reporting that among the things they did upon first arriving with a unit was to make cartridges. Put the two together.......
I don't recall exactly where I read the latter. I have been reading a thick book of individual accounts of the revolutionary War. A book of depositions given by veterans to obtain pensions. It may have been in there, and to find it again, nearly impossible.

(Side note on research/reading. I love and prefer real paper books, this is not a practical preference but an intangible maybe even emotional one, this brings up another of the advantages of digital books, the screenshot. If I had been reading the book mentioned as an e-book on my tablet I would have screenshot that passage as I would have found it noteworthy. I would then have a hope of finding it again, and it would be easy to share here.)

Edit: I should also note that from memory (which isn't always the best) I don't recall any first person accounts of anyone calling their own gun a "trade gun." As in, "I grabbed/took off the wall/picked up, my trade gun and....."
Generally (from memory) I can only recall 1st person references to the guns they possessed and used being more generalized. As in, just "my gun," "my musket," "my rifle/rifle gun," "my smoothbore/smoothie(?)", "my fusil/fusie."

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve got two trade guns, one a Carolina type and the other a Northwest gun.

I’m curious if we have any historical account of musket style paper cartridges ever being used in trade guns for warfare? It would seem since they were used by the armies of the period that they would have proven very useful to volunteers etc. who were using trade guns such as the Natives during rhe French & Indian war.

But did they ever? Any historical record of this happening?

Thanks!

In regards to trade guns and fowlers; Paper cartridges were very common for smoothbores i don’t see any evidence suggesting that they did or didn’t use paper cartridges in the 18th century.

In the case of irregular militia units, they often came into service with what they had or opted to use an ordinance marked gun, which was most commonly the case.

But there is no reason to suggest they did or didn’t use paper cartridges.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hmmmm....
Directly? Something flat out stating, "I pulled a paper cartridge and loaded my trade gun," or something to that effect? Not that I can recall ever reading.

However. I have read accounts of men volunteering for local militias or joining various local campaigns and bringing the gun they had, whatever it was, which would include trade guns. And, I have read of volunteers reporting that among the things they did upon first arriving with a unit was to make cartridges. Put the two together.......
I don't recall exactly where I read the latter. I have been reading a thick book of individual accounts of the revolutionary War. A book of depositions given by veterans to obtain pensions. It may have been in there, and to find it again, nearly impossible.

(Side note on research/reading. I love and prefer real paper books, this is not a practical preference but an intangible maybe even emotional one, this brings up another of the advantages of digital books, the screenshot. If I had been reading the book mentioned as an e-book on my tablet I would have screenshot that passage as I would have found it noteworthy. I would then have a hope of finding it again, and it would be easy to share here.)

Edit: I should also note that from memory (which isn't always the best) I don't recall any first person accounts of anyone calling their own gun a "trade gun." As in, "I grabbed/took off the wall/picked up, my trade gun and....."
Generally (from memory) I can only recall 1st person references to the guns they possessed and used being more generalized. As in, just "my gun," "my musket," "my rifle/rifle gun," "my smoothbore/smoothie(?)", "my fusil/fusie."

I would probably say that some did and some chose not to.

If they were using their guns in a militia unit then they woudl have had to, for example I believe the minute men were required to have boxes with 24 rounds. Whether or not you had a fowler or trade gun or military arm, was probably not relevant for them as they used what they had.

In times of peace, for hunting and gathering, i probably would say that they used a horn, patch and ball. They were not wasteful back then, they didn’t just go shooting on the weekends like we do, they wanted to keep things fresh and ready for necessity use. Flints were expensive, powder was not always available when needed, paper was reused for for Everything from food preservation to toilet paper.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks all, more input would be appreciated!

 

[Timber Wolf]

As I understand it, the more “well regulated” Militia that showed up on April 19, 1775 in Concord had cartridge boxes amongst their kit. If they had boxes they must have had cartridges in them I suppose.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Does anyone have a pattern that could be used for a .62 bore paper cartridge?

 

[Tumbledown]

I would probably say that some did and some chose not to.

If they were using their guns in a militia unit then they woudl have had to, for example I believe the minute men were required to have boxes with 24 rounds. Whether or not you had a fowler or trade gun or military arm, was probably not relevant for them as they used what they had.

In Massachusetts, the towns usually supplied the militia with them whenever possible. Early war boxes were 17 or 19 round capacity, while 29 round boxes came along later. Each man was expected to have a cartridge box, or pouch and horn, and generally a pound of powder and 4 pounds of ball sized for his gun, be it a musket, trade gun, or fowler.

Paper cartridges for trade guns would be perfectly acceptable, especially in wartime.

 

[FlinterNick]

In Massachusetts, the towns usually supplied the militia with them whenever possible. Early war boxes were 17 or 19 round capacity, while 29 round boxes came along later. Each man was expected to have a cartridge box, or pouch and horn, and generally a pound of powder and 4 pounds of ball sized for his gun, be it a musket, trade gun, or fowler.

Paper cartridges for trade guns would be perfectly acceptable, especially in wartime.

In wartime Yeap.

I went to the frontier museum in VA.

There was a demonstration about how frontiersmen and militia utilized all they had.

File shavings had a container.

Used paper had a container.

Dull flints were reshaped/napped and sharpened and traded to those with smaller guns.

Lead was always in short supply.

Old Rags and linens were stored for patch material.

Gun powder was accounted for for closely in the fort magazine.

The presenter made a statement that there was always a fear of being in a siege situation, as supply’s were always short. One great example is the siege at boonsburgh in 1782, Daniel Boone and the forts defenders from the British and Shawnee were forced to do a sortie to locate raw materials for gun powder, bat guano and sulfur in particular from a local stream and cavern. Gunwadding was what ever was available while most just dropped a bare ball down the barrel, when they ran out of balls they used pebbles.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I would probably say that some did and some chose not to.

If they were using their guns in a militia unit then they woudl have had to, for example I believe the minute men were required to have boxes with 24 rounds. Whether or not you had a fowler or trade gun or military arm, was probably not relevant for them as they used what they had.

In times of peace, for hunting and gathering, i probably would say that they used a horn, patch and ball. They were not wasteful back then, they didn’t just go shooting on the weekends like we do, they wanted to keep things fresh and ready for necessity use. Flints were expensive, powder was not always available when needed, paper was reused for for Everything from food preservation to toilet paper.

So don't confuse the trade gun/fuzee [fusil] with the musket. Muskets tended to be between 16 and 11 gauge, while trade guns tended to be 28-20 gauge, with the majority being around 20 gauge. So military pre-made ammo, and issued musket ball would not fit in a trade gun. "Minute" companies were very limited in location, they tend to be a New England thing, and were expected to have a musket or fowler. Although terminology was not "set in stone" a fowler tended to be a large bore gun for waterfowl, and would accept military ammo, which is why they are mentioned when militia weapons are specified in laws, but fusils and tradeguns are not.

Patching of ball in smoothbores in the 18th century is not documented. And that includes even hints such as hunters drawing a fuzee, powder, ball, and tow, but no cloth, which one would expect for patching. The tow has been thought of as for cleaning only, but we now know that it likely was also for wadding.

Like paper, a cloth patch could have been used, but nobody as yet has been found to have written it down, for trade guns.

I, however, use them all the time in mine. Especially when upland bird hunting with fellows using modern stuff. It's a LOT faster for me to tear open a paper cartridge of pre-measured powder, pour, ram the now empty powder-paper home as a wad, then follow that by gently ramming down an intact paper cartridge of pre-measured shot, and continue the hunt. (just be careful when the woods are really dry)

LD

 

[Hiverano]

This is an interesting post, something to think about for the NW gun folks. Thank you for the question and replies guys.

Buck