Old Rifle Has Arrived, And I Have Questions?? Pics!

[Rancocas]

It really is ready to roll right now, I just need to work on the sear and tumbler some. There is no half cock on this rifle, and the cocked hammer aint holding to well.

Interesting. Mine also does not have a half-cock.

 

[deadin]

I have two Ohio half-stock's that have no half-cock notch. In addition they both require the trigger be set before they will cock at all.
One is a .32 caliber and the other is a .30 cal.
When I got the first one I thought there was something wrong inside, but after looking at the mechanism, it's designed that way. BTW, they both have Riddle locks.

I am currently in the process of getting a half-stock (unmarked) that has a single notch lock and a single trigger. here's a link to a picture or two of it. http://deadingun.home.att.net/page35.html

 

[pichou]

I have seen many originals, and condition really varies. Many think if a gun isn't nasty and beat up it's a restock! This rifle has surely been taken care of over the years, and it shows!

I'm not taking condition into account. Guns can be well cared for, and can be cleaned and refinished. But a stock can crack in 40 years, and 40 year old tallow isn't very pretty.

I have looked at a lot of early guns, and a ton or two of early American furniture. Whoever stocked this gun did not stock many. It does not bear the mark of experience.

Secondly, I know pewter. I also know pewter from Britannia from a hole in the ground. If that nose cap is 150 years old, it has been cleaned waaay down past the original surface. Or it is 40 years old.

If this isn't a parts gun, tell me this: why is the patchbox marked Tryon, the barrel marked Wm Johnson, and the lock Riddle?

If it is a Tryon with a Riddle lock, why does it look like the inletting was done by a farmer? Tryon was not a small shop only open a few years.

That is why I say it is either a restock or a parts gun.

:v

 

[deadin]

why does it look like the inletting was done by a farmer?

Possibly because it was.
One of my half-stocks was made by a William Kail who was active in the latter part of the 19th Century in Tuscarawas County, Ohio. He was born in 1824 and died around 1904. He listed himself as a Farmer in the 1860,70 & 80 census and as a Gunsmith in the 1900 census. (The 1890 census was lost). His primary livelyhood was as a farmer who turned out a few rifles every year. (Probably something to do during the winter) It's my understanding that there were companies that provided various parts to the trade, locks, cast patch boxes, cast trigger guards, etc. Riddle appears to be one of these companies. My Riddle locks have numbered parts which is indicitive of "production" rather than the "one-off" that one would expect from a maker that handcrafted all of the parts himself.

 

[Mulebrain]

If this isn't a parts gun, tell me this: why is the patchbox marked Tryon, the barrel marked Wm Johnson, and the lock Riddle?

Pichou

I see your occupation is a Student! Well class is in session!

Tryon made and sold patch boxes as parts. Riddle made locks and sold them as parts as well! As customary the builder signs the barrel W Johnson.

Most original vintage guns were made up from parts suppliers during that time.

I have traveled all over the world examining all types of original guns, condition and quality can vary. I have had other original guns with pewter nose caps in good condition.

I just got through examining a gun that was this guys great great grandfathers. It was still in great shape except for a cracked stock. The nose cap was still nice and smooth just had some dirt on it.

Not every patch box inlet will look beautiful. I have seen great ones, and not so great!

The lock,tang,and barrel inletting on this rifle are done pretty good!

Sometimes logic and reasoning bounce off peoples thick skulls!

 

[Tumblernotch]

And there you have it! You just said what I've been athinkin', Mule!
:hatsoff:

 

[LaBonte]

I have seen many originals, and condition really varies. Many think if a gun isn't nasty and beat up it's a restock! This rifle has surely been taken care of over the years, and it shows!

I'm not taking condition into account. Guns can be well cared for, and can be cleaned and refinished. But a stock can crack in 40 years, and 40 year old tallow isn't very pretty.

I have looked at a lot of early guns, and a ton or two of early American furniture. Whoever stocked this gun did not stock many. It does not bear the mark of experience.

Secondly, I know pewter. I also know pewter from Britannia from a hole in the ground. If that nose cap is 150 years old, it has been cleaned waaay down past the original surface. Or it is 40 years old.

If this isn't a parts gun, tell me this: why is the patchbox marked Tryon, the barrel marked Wm Johnson, and the lock Riddle?

If it is a Tryon with a Riddle lock, why does it look like the inletting was done by a farmer? Tryon was not a small shop only open a few years.

That is why I say it is either a restock or a parts gun.

:v

With respect but based on those questions methinks perhaps you need to study the subject a wee bit more....
Tryon sold not only completed guns, but parts to others as well. In fact most of the mid-19th century guns were "parts" guns, whether they came from a large shop, a small shop, or were "custom" made by those of varying talents.
C. Hanson in his book "The Plains Rifle" notes that an old saying was - parts by Tryon, barrel by Remington, and lock by Golcher....
The Hawken guns still in existence mostly use others locks and several have purchased barrels.
Henry, one of the largest manufacturers, used parts from others (notably English import locks) and it is documented that Tryon purchased both barrels and even complete firearms from Henry at times...

So having a gun built with parts from several makers is not unusual at all for the period, especially during the 1840's through the 1860's when there was a plethora of both large and smalltime gun makers all over the place, including Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee, Ohio, as well as Pennsylvania.
And while it "may" show lack of experience that is not all that unusual either - for instance many of the "local" guns from the Hawken shop during the 1850's and 1860's can be considered fairly crude or for an earlier crude gun take a look at RCA 13 in vol 2.....
As for the clean condition - I learned to shoot with an original muzzle loader in the early 1960's by my late great uncle - his rifle was a New York made piece (IIRC with a Pope barrel, but not by the Pope shop) that had been in continual use for hunting for about 70 years and other than the normal wear and tear was in excellent condition, since he religiously cleaned it including polishing the furniture, etc. so there was no real "original" finish to wear away.....

and with respect to your friend regarding locks - not all original locks were quite so well made or "delicate" as he indicated and not all modern locks are over sized or clunky with parts showing casting marks and over thick springs - for instance Bob Roller's modern locks are just one example of absolutely gorgeous pieces, right up there with the Mantons I've owned and examined....
As always much depends of course on who made the originals and for what - e.g. original musket locks are large and very stout and the English model Henry locks in the 6" plate size are larger than most any of the standard modern locks......and the innards of the lower end Ketland trade locks that are close in size to the modern "standard" locks are quite stout and not all that finely finished, at least when compared to the higher end locks of their period......


Whetever it is it looks like a fun gun! :hatsoff:

 

[Leatherbark]

Otter!

Thanks for all the info!

I will get it x rayed first. I am just really afraid of doing any damage to the stock.

I really don't need to remove the barrel, I am just searching for more possible information from the barrel or channel.

I understand the concept of the barrel wedge hook, but do not understand how this one is done. There is no visible retaining pin!

I will let you know!!

I do work for a couple of dentists, and they might be able to help!

MB

I wonder if there is a cross pin that slides down through a mortise and then to the rear locking it in the forend by a notched lug on the barrel. This would hide a cross pin. The tang screws then hold it all together.......Bob

 

[oakridge]

Mulebrain - Nice old original, and I have no idea how the barrel is attached to stock. By the 1850's most small town gunsmiths purchased components for rifle making. I don't think it had anything to do with their ability or expertise in gunmaking. Guns could be made faster and sold cheaper by purchasing the barrels, locks, and sets of mountings. I have seen where they bought sets of german silver, brass, and iron mountings from large suppliers in Philadelphia, Boston and New York during this period.

And, as to the X-ray idea, you might consider a veterinarian with an equine practice. Many of them have portable units that they can carry out to farms, race tracks, etc. to X-ray horses with leg problems or lameness. Might X-ray your gun at their clinic, at no charge or a small fee.

 

[Rancocas]

Well, come on. We want to know. Have you gotten the barrel off yet?
Maybe its glued in.

 

[Mulebrain]

Well, come on. We want to know. Have you gotten the barrel off yet?
Maybe its glued in.

Patience is a virtue :grin:

In our Boy Scout troop, we have a doctor, and am awaiting to use his x ray machine. I will let ya know

MB

 

[Ed Wingenroth]

So what happened ???

 

[Mulebrain]

I got the barrel out, and there is no underlugs at all! I will post pics of this! It appears to have been held by the poured nose cap :hmm:

 

[rafterob]

That was my thought- that the nose cap was poured in place around an under barrel lug with possibly a cross pin embedded within the casting. I was waiting to see the eventual result.