Need unusual nipple

[Skychief]

I'm on the hunt for a few nipples for a Royland Southgate rifle.

Overall length: .662"
Diameter across the threads: .248"
Diameter of shoulder: .310"
Length of shoulder: .194"
Threaded section length: .205"
Length of cone: .257"


The overall length is accurate, while the other lengths are within a thousandth or two (hard to measure).

I believe the nipple has 28 threads per inch. Will confirm this soon.

Can ANY of you tell where suitable replacement nipples be ordered? Would prefer not to drill and tap if it can be avoided.

I've looked a few places but come up empty.

Thanks for ANY suggestions. Will be back with definitive TPI measurement.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Zonie]

Sounds like a standard 1/4-28 percussion rifle nipple to me.
Your dimensions come very close to what I am measuring on a spare nipple I have.

Try Track of the Wolf
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1

 

[azmntman]

I had a really hard to do nipple on an older 1849 revolver, had to have one made. $30.00 but worth it. A member here has a friend named Rick Weber that did it? I'm betting you'll find one at track tho....I sent mine to em and they flat out said they never seen one my size, sent it back all with about a week. Good luck!

 

[Skychief]

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

It's definitely not 28 threads to an inch. Tried 1/4 X 20 TPI at the hardware store, also. No go.

The owner says it looks coarser that 28, possibly 24 TPI. He has much better eyes than me.

So it looks like I've t an oddball on my hands.

He suggested I go to Fastenall and see if they can figure the TPI for certain.

If it is an uncommon thread ratio, my work will no doubt be cut out for me to find a replacement.

Thanks Zonie.

AZ, I may need to know where you had a thirty dollar nipple made before this is over.

Anybody else? I'm all ears...

 

[Coot]

I have no idea where or when your nipples were made but if they are not a US standard, you might check against metric (6mm looks to be be about .236" across the threads & close to 25.4 tpi) and whitworth (.250 across the threads & 20 tpi).

 

[Skychief]

Great idea Coot. I checked metric at the hardware store. Nope.

The nipple and rifle were made in Tennessee in the 1950's or early 1960's.

Thanks all the same, Skychief

 

[azmntman]

pm sent

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thread measuring devices can be purchased very inexpensively. Try Harbor Freight.

 

[Artificer]

Skychief,

First step is to find out exactly what screw thread size you have. Do you know any full time or part time or retired Machinists who could figure out exactly what the size is? Or do you know someone who teaches Shop courses in High School or Community College or Trade schools in your area?

Perhaps there is a metric or other thread nipple that is correct as Coot mentioned? Once you DO have the correct thread size, Dixie Gun Works may have a nipple that would work? It would sure be worth a least a call to them about it.

Here is something to consider even if you do have to get someone to make a $30.00 replacement nipple for you. What happens when that one gets worn out?

Here is a suggestion from what U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team members had had to do over the years. Get the nipple threads in the bolster or barrel re-tapped for a nipple that is and will be commonly available, whether it be 1/4 x 28 standard or oversize or a metric nipple that is still common to find. Two or more $30.00 Nipples is going to cost you more than having someone correctly re-tap it for you. Oh, and BTW it would not take a gunsmith to do it. Again an active or retired Machinist could most likely do it for you.

Gus

 

[Zonie]

One cannot retap a threaded hole to a different thread pitch without going to a larger size thread or removing the existing threads and installing a metal plug for the new threaded hole.

For instance, it is impossible to retap a 1/4-28 UNF hole to a 1/4-32 UNEF thread without ending up with a hole with severely damaged threads that will fail if a load is applied to whatever is screwed into that hole.

This is why I find myself giving this warning to all of the people who recommend just retapping the hole to install a Chambers White Lightning vent liner. White Lightning liners have 1/4-32 UNEF or 5/16-32 UNEF threads.

To rethread a 1/4" hole and end up with usable threads the person must drill out the old threads and then rethread it with a 5/16" size thread.

Most if not all of the standard 5/16" threaded nipples are used in Muskets and require Musket caps.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

I read somewhere that the nipples used were either original colt or a machined copy? Not sure how accurate the information was. You can get reproductions of original colt nipples which are different than what comes on import reproductions of colts. They cost the same amount as any other off the shelf nipple.

 

[Artificer]

One cannot retap a threaded hole to a different thread pitch without going to a larger size thread or removing the existing threads and installing a metal plug for the new threaded hole.

For instance, it is impossible to retap a 1/4-28 UNF hole to a 1/4-32 UNEF thread without ending up with a hole with severely damaged threads that will fail if a load is applied to whatever is screwed into that hole.


To rethread a 1/4" hole and end up with usable threads the person must drill out the old threads and then rethread it with a 5/16" size thread.

Most if not all of the standard 5/16" threaded nipples are used in Muskets and require Musket caps.

Zonie,

Yes, I was too succinct in my post above. I should have mentioned that if the hole size was indeed a 1/4 inch, then just retapping the hole with a different 1/4 inch thread size would not work. Excellent point.

However, if the hole is for something under a 1/4 inch threaded hole, then either a standard 1/4 x 28 OR an oversize tap for an oversize thread nipple may have sufficient threads to work and be safe. A fair number of original thread sizes for rifles were around .225" to .235" and there is normally enough metal in those holes to thread them to 1/4 x 28 or oversize nipple. Also a worn 1/4 inch thread may be able to be saved by using an oversize tap and oversize nipple. This is part of the reason why it is so important to get an accurate measurement of the thread size.

So I decided to look up and link "oversize" nipples as well as a number of other different size nipples that Skychief may find useful.

The following link goes over different size thread and oversize thread nipples. However, they made a Typo Error on the first oversize nipple. As written it says "Rifle- .225 x 28, (.005" oversize thread)" In fact the diameter is .255 x 28, which is a .005" oversize thread.

Also, I wonder if the actual thread size is that of the old Numrich Nipple size of 1/4 x 32 tpi?
http://www.possibleshop.com/s-s-nipples.html

Oversize taps can be found here: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1046/4/TOOL-TAP-15

Bottom line, the first thing Skychief needs to do is get an exact measurement of the thread size and threads per inch of the nipple in his rifle. Then it will be much easier to discuss options.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

P.S. Prior to the 1996 World Championships at Wedgnock, Midlands, UK - I had passed the word that all percussion shooters needed to have a new or nearly new nipple in their gun/s and preferably at least one spare nipple for long guns or single shot percussion pistols and a set of six spare nipples for revolvers. That to ensure they would not have problems with a too worn nipple at the World Shoot and ESPECIALLY if the nipples were not standard sizes.

Well, in a classic case of "not listening to and following advice from your Armourer," I was walking the line during practice at the Match Site before the competition began when another Team Member ran up to me and informed me one of our best Female Shooters needed help at my Armourer's bench (actually a picnic table with a borrowed vise clamped to it). She had frantically been trying different nipple wrenches I had laid out in case a team member needed one.

So when I got there, I calmed her down and took her rifle. UH OH!!!! It was an original underhammer target rifle and God only knows what diameter and thread size the nipples were when they made those rifles, as there was a large variation in those days. So with no little amount of trepidation and concern, I checked the nipple size and was much relieved to find it was a true 1/4" x 28, though it was badly burned out. I pulled out a new replacement, checked the flash hole to ensure it was good (even though I had checked every nipple before going to the shoot) and quickly installed it for her.

Later on when she finished her practice session, I reminded her she had been there at the Team Meeting when I originally passed the word about using a new nipple, months before we went to the UK for the matches. That's when she told me another Team Member had looked at it for her "about a year and a half ago and it was good, then." I just shook my head....

Later on that other Team Member who had checked the nipple, informed me he had drilled and tapped the original nipple hole for the now standard 1/4 x 28 nipples, three or four years earlier - because it had a really unusual size original thread that was no longer available. When I informed him of what she had said about him checking the nipple earlier, he just shook his head. He had informed her he wanted to look at the nipple in her rifle before the match, but she never got around to showing it to him. I thanked him for having the foresight to have drilled and tapped the original hole for a modern thread nipple and then we both shook our heads and chuckled.

Gus

 

[nhmoose]

Dixie used to sell oversized threaded nipples . They said use the hardened nipple as the Tap if I remember right.

I need to order a new catalog from them as mine last one is nowhere to be found.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Dixie used to sell oversized threaded nipples . They said use the hardened nipple as the Tap if I remember right.

I need to order a new catalog from them as mine last one is nowhere to be found.

Their older catalogs (I don't know about current ones) also advise just force fitting a nipple if the correct thread cannot be located. That was one of the reasons I stopped buying DGW catalogs or ordering from them.

 

[Artificer]

Dixie used to sell oversized threaded nipples . They said use the hardened nipple as the Tap if I remember right.

I need to order a new catalog from them as mine last one is nowhere to be found.

I'm pretty sure the ones Dixie sold were the same ones in the link I provided in my post above.

Gus

 

[zimmerstutzen]

We tend to think of threads as either UNC or UNF, but there are also UNEF and UNS. Just under UNS, there are six different 1/4 inch TPI's. 24, 27, 36, 40 48 and 56. Under the UNEF chart, 1/4 inch has 32 TPI. How is that for confusion.

In wood turning applications 1 inch x8TPI is a common application, and that is UNC standard, but also commonly found in wood turning is 1.125 x 8 and 1.25 x 8, which are UNS threads.

 

[Boomerang]

You can also drill and tap it for a Heli-Coil insert for a standard thread.

 

[Artificer]

You can also drill and tap it for a Heli-Coil insert for a standard thread.

Yes indeed, though that is well beyond the ability of most people and especially those who do not have a machinist background. However, it is definitely a way to correct a worn out/oversize nipple thread channel. :thumbsup:

Gus

 

[Zonie]

Yes, nipple holes can be reworked by installing a Heli-coil thread insert but there are a few problems in doing so.

Heli-coils come in several lengths. The shortest length is 1 times the fasteners thread diameter.

That makes the shortest length of a 1/4-20 or 1/4-28 Heli-coil, 1/4" long.

This might be OK in some guns but in others it is too long and it will block off some or all of the crossdrilled flame channel.
The only way to prevent this is to shorten the thread insert and the only way to do this that I can think of is to use a small, precision grinder like a Dremel or equal.

Another smaller problem is, if a Heli-coil insert is used there will be almost no surface remaining for the nipple to seal against.

I made the following drawing to show why this isn't a problem with spark plugs but with a percussion nipple, it could be.

HeliCoil-2 by James, on Flickr

Notice, the .005 sealing area for the nipple is a nominal amount. If the tolerances go against sealing there may not be any sealing surface at all.

That's why if a Heli-coil is going to be used in this application it's a good idea to use a thread sealing compound when it is installed.