Need help with sloppy wedge

[M. De Land]

Sir, I think if Sam Colt himself told you arbor "end fit" is correct you wouldn't believe him. I've told you my experience with originals, folks here have posted the same, folks that own them have told the same, if you'd read on other forums you'd get the same answers. You base all your ideas on inaccurate copies started by ignorant Italians that are still making them the same today! In fact, the one manufacturer that finally changed to a correct set up (which makes my work a little easier) still doesn't have any thought provoking effects apparently.

Anyway, again, as far as a contact patch on the forward side of the wedge with the arbor slot, the patch on originals is just a small point of contact. Your "suspect" thought about set screws leaving a mark must be an "opinion" of yours as well.
View attachment 245297
Here's the forward side of the wedge from my '60 45acp. No dents.

Mike

That bare metal on the front of the wedge looks suspiciously like a ding that has been stoned out !

 

[45D]

That bare metal on the front of the wedge looks suspiciously like a ding that has been stoned out !

Nope, bluing worn off.

 

[M. De Land]

Nope, bluing worn off.

Dang, looking closer at your wedge I can see an impression where it meets the adjustment screw !

 

[45D]

Dang, looking closer at your wedge I can see an impression where it meets the adjustment screw !

Sorry sir. It's not.
Here's a pic from this morning, different angle better light. Shows a perfectly smooth surface.

Here's another

Mike

 

[45D]

While I have "BATB" ( Beauty and the Beast) apart, here's a picture of the arbor and set screw/ bearing surface.

These are "today current" so, this is what 1,000 rounds of 21-23K psi looks like on parts.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Sorry sir. It's not.
Here's a pic from this morning, different angle better light. Shows a perfectly smooth surface.
View attachment 245513

Here's another
View attachment 245514

Mike

I don't see what I thought was an impression in these photos. I'm sure I won't be using any wedge adjusting screws from what I can see though.

 

[45D]

I don't see what I thought was an impression in these photos. I'm sure I won't be using any wedge adjusting screws from what I can see though.

Of course not, because it was never there. That's the original wedge that came with that particular revolver.

What is it that you see?

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Sorry sir. It's not.
Here's a pic from this morning, different angle better light. Shows a perfectly smooth surface.
View attachment 245513

Here's another
View attachment 245514

Of course not, because it was never there. That's the original wedge that came with that particular revolver.

What is it that you see?

Mike

There is a mid wedge line gouge probably from the screw but that doesn't hurt anything. The main thing is there is no impression dent from the adjustment screw that I thought I could see in the earlier photos which would be a problem.

 

[45D]

The straight taper on the wedge mating up with the flat or rounded end of the adjustment screw creates a very small area of contact.
When making a wider wedge you will generally have to elongate the barrel slot forward a bit to allow clearance for it to move rearward with the wider wedge install. I ground a three safe sided bastard file just for front barrel slot clearance elongation.

The wedge in originals only touches the the arbor slot with a very small contact patch.

As far as a wider wedge, is your wedge touching the forward side of the barrel assembly too? Not quite clear in you explanation.
I've never ever had to extend the barrel slot forward.

Mike

 

[Dude]

Well, ok. I see in the photos that the wedge adjusting screw is as wide as the slot. Looks like it's got more bearing surface than original.

If original wedges aren't hardened, it probably makes sense to keep them that way. I'd rather wear the wedge than the bearing surfaces.

I'm thinking of soldering a piece of shim stock to the side of the wedge. Seems like a quick and easy solution.

As for using my lathe for shortening the barrel lug - it's a second operation lathe without a tail stock. I might be able to fit it into the 7x10 HF lathe. Maybe. But I've already shortened it by hand. I've got a thin diamond file and draw it between the two parts clamped together. When close, I used lapping compound to get them fitting perfectly. Doing it in the lathe would have been much easier and quicker.

 

[M. De Land]

The wedge in originals only touches the the arbor slot with a very small contact patch.

As far as a wider wedge, is your wedge touching the forward side of the barrel assembly too? Not quite clear in you explanation.
I've never ever had to extend the barrel slot forward.

Mike

No, you wouldn't need to with a screw pushing the existing wedge rearward. It is only necessary when making a new wider wedge for clearance to move the barrel rearward. It only takes a few strokes with a three sided safe file that can only cut forward.
It really looks neat when you can get the depth needed and all slots filled and bottoming out together but that takes a lot of spot fitting that is not really necessary in front of the wedge.
Here is a shot of the clearance on the new wedge fit up.
The file cuts a square corner but the wedge has a radius on all the side edges.

 

[M. De Land]

Well, ok. I see in the photos that the wedge adjusting screw is as wide as the slot. Looks like it's got more bearing surface than original.

If original wedges aren't hardened, it probably makes sense to keep them that way. I'd rather wear the wedge than the bearing surfaces.

I'm thinking of soldering a piece of shim stock to the side of the wedge. Seems like a quick and easy solution.

As for using my lathe for shortening the barrel lug - it's a second operation lathe without a tail stock. I might be able to fit it into the 7x10 HF lathe. Maybe. But I've already shortened it by hand. I've got a thin diamond file and draw it between the two parts clamped together. When close, I used lapping compound to get them fitting perfectly. Doing it in the lathe would have been much easier and quicker.

I'm sure it can be done in a mill on index centers as well. This is just the easiest set up for me.
The trouble as I see it is the screw is either rounded or flat and neither gives as much contact surface against the five degree wedge taper as fitting the slot end to as much of the wedge angle as practical.
I don't like to deviate any more than necessary from Colt design unless I encounter a problem that can be improved in a practical way. End fit of the arbor is one I have adopted that seems a practical improvement and (I'm told was original Colt fit up) for my own guns but i don't see as a necessity for good performance over factory fit up. To many of them shoot well without it as far as I can see.

 

[dickydalton]

a

 

[M. De Land]

a

That's" dribbler" Dicky my lad ! I see you still can't resist posting ! Fish on, I got a live one boys ! Hope it's not a bullhead !

 

[45D]

Mike, I have a question. My 1862 pocket police has a smaller diameter arbor than the full-size colts. I drilled and tapped for a 6-32 set screw which seems to work fine, but I was wondering if I should have gone a bit larger, maybe 8-32 or maybe 10-32? Thoughts? By the way I’ve only had a chance to put 15 rounds through it, but with the action shield and cap post I had 100% function, so far anyway!

Hey!! I use 1/4" X 28 in everything except pockets. I use 10 X 32 in pockets.
10 X 32's also for action stops.
6 X 32 ( s.s. screws) for cap posts and action stops in Remingtons.

Mike

 

[1stnamebassist]

Hey!! I use 1/4" X 28 in everything except pockets. I use 10 X 32 in pockets.
10 X 32's also for action stops.
6 X 32 ( s.s. screws) for cap posts and action stops in Remingtons.

Mike

Thanks Mike! Maybe I’ll go larger even though right now it’s working. Probably will wear on the end against the wedge faster however.

 

[45D]

Thanks Mike! Maybe I’ll go larger even though right now it’s working. Probably will wear on the end against the wedge faster however.

Just keep an eye on it and if you see any "wear", you can go bigger. The bigger the bearing surface, the "easier " it will be on the wedge ( which is why I use 1/4" for belt and horse pistols.

Mike

 

[Dude]

The end of the arbor is .175" thick. If I drill/tap for a 1/4-32, I'll have only 5.6 threads. 1/4-28 gives 4.9 threads. What do you say, Mike? Is that enough of should I make a wider wedge?

 

[45D]

The end of the arbor is .175" thick. If I drill/tap for a 1/4-32, I'll have only 5.6 threads. 1/4-28 gives 4.9 threads. What do you say, Mike? Is that enough of should I make a wider wedge?

Well, I don't do wedges so all makes get 1/4 X 28's. I've never had one fail.
With the set screw in place and filling the threaded hole (basically)it's purpose is to be a "stop" for the wedge. With the rear side of the wedge pushing the barrel assy backwards, it is effectively pushing ( pulling) the bottom of the arbor hole against the end of the arbor. So, the harder you drive the wedge in, the harder the barrel is pulled against the end of the arbor ( which is why it (the design) works so well !!)!!
I like to have options so an adjustable bearing makes more sense to me than a wedge that may ultimately need replacement.

Mike

 

[Dude]

I see your point. I was concerned there wouldn't be enough threads to support the forces on it. However, I just realized that if I make the front end of the grub screw flush with the end surface of the arbor, there won't be any force on the threads at all.

Also, I realized another option is an m6x0.5 grub screw. M6 is close to quarter inch and 0.5 pitch means .020" per thread that works out to 50 threads per inch. Not sure I'd need to fine-tune to that extent, but it's doable. Flat point grub screws and taps are readily available on ebay.