Murdock pistol from Military heritage

[T.C.Albert]

Does anyone know how much defarbing is needed on these pistols?

Like is there a deep "made in India" stamp on it etc...
TC

 

[poordevil]

http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/NEWscotmurdoch.shtml

THIS APPEARS TO BE THE SAME GUN....ALREADY VENTED.

In the close up's I do not see Made in India.

p

 

[dave_person]

I don't know if you can "defarb" them because the lock is all wrong. The vast majority of Scottish pistols, civilian and those made by Waters and Bissell for the military, used the highland lock. It has a lateral sear that protrudes through the lockplate and catches the front shoulder of the cock, holding it back at full cock. When the trigger is pulled, the lug or sear is pulled into the plate releasing the cock. Those production pistols look like they use standard flintlocks, which were used but rarely on Scottish pistols.

dave

 

[colmoultrie]

Funny, I've seen some with the "Highland" lock, but many with conventional flintlock locks.

Here's an example by Murdoch...
Link

Now the next lot, by Henry Nock, uses the "Highland" lock. So take your pick...

Here's another, earlier pistol from about 1690 that appears to have a conventional lock.
Link

"Highland" lock...
Link

and perhaps conventional, but difficult to see...
Link

Another one...
Link

 

[Rock Island]

I have several flinters from MVTco, all are vented, frizzens hardened, and there are no markings on them saying made in India.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Colmoutrie,
You cannot tell simply by not seeing the lug in any of those photos because it may be hidden behind the cock. Here is an exerpt from Kelvin's book on Scottish pistols talking about lobe-butted pistols (those in your links):
"Thomas Murdoch must be given the credit for the new design of the pistol, which, although retaining the Highland lock and the four-staged barrel of the more traditional Doune pistols, incorporated a butt which was of lobe shape, and so resembled more the conventional English pistol, with its more rounded butt."

Kelvin describing "ramshorn pistols" like the "Murdoch?" replica:
"Toward the end of the seventeenth century, the lock mechanism was invariably of flintlock construction (earlier it was a snaphaunce), having a lateral-acting sear which pierced the lockplate in the manner of the Highland lock
"
More on the same subject:
"Throughout the century (18th) the locks retained the traditional lateral-acting, or horizontal, sear."

True flintlocks (of the French design) were used mostly on rare heart-butted pistols and 19th century "costume" pistols.

All of those pistols you provide links for probably have highland locks and you can tell that because 1) none have a screw showing positioned low behind the cock (for the vertical sear) and 2) when viewed from the opposite side on most you can see a screw high up above the belt hook. Those of you who have ever built a lateral sear gun know that those locks require the trigger to be pinned very high above the lock plate.


dave

 

[colmoultrie]

Thanks for the info!

I will readily admit that just about all of the Highland pistols I've seen have been behind glass or in photos. I can see the sear in some cases, and not in others I took to be conventional locks, but I bow to your knowldege.

The MVTC pistol is not marked on it "made in India" at all. Here are some photos - as Dave said, a conventional flintlock.

It's crude, but fun, as long as you keep it REALLY close!

 

[dave_person]

Hi Colmoultrie,
Actually, bow to Martin Kelvin's work. I have handled a few Scottish pistols and have seen a bunch behind glass as well. I will be making a one soon from TRS castings. Ultimately I want to make a 17th century brass one. Anyway, here is a link that shows an original Bissell pistol that your reproduction was probably based on:
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=2086465

 

[Zonie]

For those who are interested, the Highland lock which has, "a lateral sear that protrudes through the lockplate and catches the front shoulder of the cock..." is a derivative of the pre "Flintlock" known as a Snaphance.

This method of holding the lock in a cocked position also was used on many wheellocks.

This method of holding and releasing the cock's main disadvantage is it was difficult to provide a "half cock" or safe condition to a loaded gun.
The English developed the "dog lock" to solve this safety problem by adding an external catch, known as the "dog" to keep the cock from falling.
To fire one of these the dog latch had to be moved up or down depending on the design so it no longer would keep the cock from falling.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Zonie,
That was a good description of the lateral sear lock. The English did design some type 1 locks with an effective half cock. I am not sure if there were wear problems causing most gunsmiths to abandon it in favor of the dog catch. Anyway, below are photos of a type 1 English lock that I built from TRS parts. The first photo shows the lateral sear lug in its slot behind the cock.

Photo below show the inside of the lock with the cock at rest- lateral sear, tumbler, mainspring and sear spring.

This photo shows the lock at halfcock with the tumbler seated in the notch on the sear.

This photo shows the lock at full cock.

Photo shows the sear lug protruding the plate and catching the cock at fullcock.

Photo showing the inside of the lock.

A gun with a lateral sear must have the trigger pinned very high, usually above the lockplate, so that it can swing backward and push the sear backward ratehr than upward like a true (French) flintlock.

dave