Model 1819 Hall Flintlock

[Mountainman56]

I came across this rifle on my recent trip to California. It was on display in the military museum in Old Sacramento. It'm sure many of you have seen something like this before but it's certainly new to me. From what I've been able to find on the internet these rifles were produced as late as 1838.

It looks kinda cumbersome and clumsy and as you can see this rifle also poses several dilemmas. Does it belong in the flintlock forum? Does it belong in the non-muzzleloading forum (it's actually a breech-loader)? Does it belong in one of the inl&ne forums? Where is the rear sight?

Kinda cool when you think about it. A flintlock built in the 1830's that's not legal to use in muzzleloader season.

 

[rabjr]

I don't see why this weapon can't be discussed here and it has been in the past, not sure if a search will work but you can try. It's just one of those odd transitional ( breechloading )guns made in the late flintlock, early percussion era that the military saw fit to issue in limited quantity's.

 

[44-henry]

I remember hearing once that the users sometimes removed the breeches from these guns and used them as short range concealed weapons. Don't know if that is true or not but its an interesting tale nonetheless.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

They did remove the breechblock unit and use it as a pistol when they went into town. There's a painting of a soldier holding Mexican troops at bay with one. I'll see if I can find the reference for it.

 

[Many Klatch]

I talked with someone that shot one of these once. The breech didn't seal well and the escaping gases would move the brim of his hat. Of course the gun was over a hundred years by then, but I imagine that was a problem when they were new. I have seen them converted to percussion and supposedly used by cavalry during the Civil War.

Many Klatch

 

[oneeye]

Very cool picture. Thanks for sharing.

That one would pose quite the issue for the ML police, wouldn't it? :hmm: :hmm:
Dan

 

[Zonie]

The Hall rifle was officially adapted by the Military in 1819 and was produced as late as 1844 at Harpers Ferry.

During a test in 1825 one rifle was fired 7,186 times to test its durability.

The Hall was made in both rifle and carbine versions, the latter being used by some of the Dragoons (pre-calvary).

Harpers Ferry was the prime maker of the Hall rifle and the Simeon North company at Middletown, Connecticut was a second contractor.
There was a total of 22,870 Halls produced.

 

[Tumblernotch]

That little bar with a notch in it just to the left of the barrel band is the rear sight. The sights were offset so they could be seen. The M1841 Hall Rifle was a percussion gun.

J.B. Barrett of Wytheville, VA manufactured about 300 muzzleloading rifles using Hall parts and the Hall could be loaded and used as a muzzleloader.

This weapon is also the first firearm to be manufactured as a fully interchangeable weapon. A whole new generation of machine tools was born in the development of the Hall Rifle.

 

[colmoultrie]

The breech didn't seal well 100 years ago either, according to reports.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Does it belong in the flintlock forum? Does it belong in the non-muzzleloading forum (it's actually a breech-loader)? Does it belong in one of the inl&ne forums?

It's a flintlock.
It's not an inline.
It was made prior to 1865.
It believe it has a ramrod. (Muzzleloading breechloader? :haha: )
http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/gallerypages/hfhall603.html

 

[Joe Wolf]

It was the first breechloading rifle ordered by the US Government.

Some Model 1819s were converted to percussion.

Model 1836 percussion carbines were made for the US Second Dragoons to use in the Seminole Wars.

I have read in one account, on a Texas A&M webpage on Texas History......that a gentleman in favor of Texas's independence from Mexico called a meeting in New Orleans. He offered the first 50 volunteers for the New Orleans Greys, a military outfit that was going to fight in Texas, a percussion Hall rifle. The Greys fought in the battle that captured San Antonio and the Alamo, and a large percentage of the 394 Texas prisoners captured at the Battle of Coleto Creek, near Goliad, Texas, were New Orleans Greys. All the prisoners were shot down while on a march supposedly to the Gulf of Mexico to board a ship bound for the United States. I have not seen the Hall rifles mentioned anywhere else in my readings of Texas history, so who knows if the Greys had any of them.

There were also Model 1842 Hall percussion rifles.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Hall rifles and carbines saw a lot more use than is generally realized. The Hall rifle was accurate and could be loaded faster than a smoothbore musket and yet, for some reason known only to the military minds of the time, most Halls were smoothbore. The shoulders of the breech-block seated against wedges which could be adjusted to take up any wear and keep the breech joint reasonably tight, though never "gas proof". Their greatest defect was that spilled powder would accumulate inside the stock and when another shot was fired the accumulated powder might ignite and blow out the stock with possible injury to the shooter's hands and pretty certain injury to his nerves.
They were especially well liked for cavalry and dragoons because when the muzzleloading musketoon was carried muzzle downward in a saddle boot the load would be shaken downward and could burst a barrel if fired without being reseated. That would not happen with a Hall because the breech loaded ball was slightly larger than the bore. And of course a breech loader was much easier to reload on horseback. All in all it was a pretty good gun for its time but never found much of a civilian market. I think that lack of a civilian market explains why they are so rare today and that rarity leads one to think they were always scarce but actually they saw much use over many years from the east coast to California.

 

[Okwaho]

It's not a commonly known fact but there were some Kentucky rifles made with Hall's ignitions.A friend had a collection of unusual locks installed in Kentuckies and other guns and one Kentucky had the Hall's lock in original flint. It was brass mounted with a nice four piece box and had, as I recall,typical Kentucky architecture and mounts. I don't recall whether it was rifled.That gun was the only one I ever saw and handled but I'm sure there are others floating around.
Tom Patton

 

[crockett]

I'm not too knowledgable on these guns but I think the US was one of the first, or the first, country to adopt a breech loading rifle. I know the British had the Ferguson but that may have been an oddity- don't know for sure.
I thought to big plus was the ability to reload from a concealed position.
I think Thomas Jefferson sent a letter to Simeon North insisting that the United States lead the world in the best of weaponry and armed troops. We've been number 1 for a long time, virtually from the start.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The French might feel that they held the lead in small arms for a very long time--what with inventing the true flintlock and all. And their military arms and trade fusils were second to none. And then there's the Minie ball.... :v

 

[Tumblernotch]

Yes, but the Minie as we know it is an American invention. James Henry Burton modified it to the form adopted by the Army.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The French might feel that they held the lead in small arms for a very long time--what with inventing the true flintlock and all. And their military arms and trade fusils were second to none. And then there's the Minie ball.... :v

Yes and we (the U.S.) felt the same way. From the beginning in 1795, US muskets and most rifles were almost direct copies of or designed very similarly to the French muskets.

And sorry KanawhaRanger but the Burton bullet was an improvement of the French Minie ball, not a new American invention, so still French in concept. :grin:

 

[crockett]

Yeah, the French muskets were better than the Bess.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

There is a Hall on Gun Broker.com. It's under collectible firearms-antiques. The seller has posted a few photos that are worth a look.

 

[Tumblernotch]

And sorry KanawhaRanger but the Burton bullet was an improvement of the French Minie ball, not a new American invention, so still French in concept. :grin:

Yes, a French concept, but it was found that the iron cup used in the hollow base often broke the ball. Burton then devised a composition plug (lead/tin) to expand the ball. This was his improvement. In tests, it was found that this plug fell out in flight and could cause a hazard when firing over friendly troops. Here is a quote from a report by Col. Huger at Pikesville Arsenal in 1854:

"After several trials to contrive a plug that would act with certainty, Nr. Burton hit upon the expedient of hollowing out the bottom of the bullet and making the edges thin enough to be forced outwards by the action of the gas at the instant of the explosion of the charge, thus causing it to fill the grooves and receive its rotary motion."

Earlier in his report, Col. Huger said,"The plan proposed by Capt. Minie, of loading with a ball which goes in free, and is forced into the grooves at the instant of discharge by the action of the gas upon it, has been preferred as being more simple. The balls of this kind, made according to the description of those used in France, did not succeed in our experiments."

The British also used a hollow base in the Pritchett bullet after experiments with clay and boxwood plugs, but this bullet was an elongated expanding bullet without grease grooves, using instead the cartridge paper impregnated with lubrication. The Burton was of French design in shape (cylindro-ogee), with an open, enlarged hollow base and with cannelures on the cylindrical part which held the grease and also made this bullet easier to load than the Pritchett. Several variations of Burton's bullet were tried along with Pritchett's and Minie's designs using different weight bullets and types of rifling and powder granulations. And all were compared to the round ball.

Yep, I agree that it was a French concept, but the well-known "Minie" of the American Civil War is much more American than French.

Sorry for getting off-topic.