misfires/poor ignition

[johnwm]

I recently got a used-but-excellent-condition Investarm Hawken-type rifle (thanks to this forum I realize that it is essentially the Lyman Trade Rifle) in .54 caliber. The gun shoots quite accurately, but I seem to be getting a lot of misfires, i.e. the cap goes off, but the gun doesn't. I have carefully cleaned the threaded nipple receptacle and the "flash-hole"...I'm sure that's not the correct term, but you know what I mean. I have also put on a new nipple. When I shoot off percussion caps only, no powder or bullet, I notice that holding the muzzle against a leaf on the ground produces much less effect than doing the same with my other two muzzleloaders, both .50cals. The leaf moves, but not nearly as much as with the .50's.

I am using Triple7 powder, as real black powder seems to be impossible to find nowadays. Is this stuff more difficult to ignite than real black? I don't notice a problem with the .50's as far as ignition goes. There seems to be a noticeable lag between the ignition of the cap and the ignition of the powder, which I don't remember in the past...or maybe I'm just grasping at straws?

Is it possible that the greater volume of the .54cal barrel results in less pressure at the muzzle when a cap is popped, explaining the lack of reaction on leaves?

Whatever is going on, I know that I am not getting the reliability that I am accustomed to. I am thinking that I really need to find some real black powder. Any other ideas?

 

[Billnpatti]

Two things to check, first are you using the magnum caps? They are made specifically for substitute powders since their ignition temperature is higher than black powder. If you are using regular caps, go get some magnum caps. Secondly, when you buy a used gun, you are never quite sure of what you are getting nor how the previous owner cared for the rifle. So many people who are new to muzzleloading do not know how to properly clean a muzzleloader. They try to clean them like a modern gun and that causes problems. They often end up with crud packed into the breach of the gun and that will certainly mess up your ignition. Make sure that your breach is thoroughly clean. If the gunk has been in there for a while, it can be a beast to get out. I am pretty sure your gun has a small pocket in the breach called a patent breach. If you do not get the crud out of that pocket, you will have ignition problems. You may be able to clean it by pumping hot soapy water through the nipple hole. Remove your nipple and immerse your breach in a bucket of hot soapy water and then use a wet patch on your cleaning jag to pump the hot soapy water through your breach. If this doesn't get the breach clean, you will have to find a either a bolt with the same thread as your nipple and screw it into the nipple hole or use a wooden stick that you sharpen down to fit into the hole. Plug the hole and stand the barrel upright. Fill it with soapy water and let it stand for an hour. Then pour out the water and rinse with clear water. This should clean out the breach. Run some dry patches through your bore to dry it and spray in some WD-40 to get rid of the residual water. Thoroughly wipe out the WD-40 and run a patch with some Birchwood-Casey Barricade on it through your bore. If you bore is not clean by now, you will need to order a .32 cal. breach scraper that will fit down into the pocket in the breach to get at the gunk. Breach scrapers are available from places like Track of The Wolf and Dixie Gun Works. Be sure to order the proper thread size so it will fit your cleaning rod.

A thoroughly clean breach and magnum caps should have you up and running.

 

[bpd303]

What Billnpatti said should resolve the ignition problems. I have used a 30 caliber nylon cleaning brush to get the crud out of several pattent breeches. If you try that be sure to rotate the brush clockwise so it doesn't become stuck and only use one with a solid range rod that way you won't run the risk of pulling off the tip of a ram rod.

 

[johnwm]

Thanks guys. I didn't even know there were magnum caps.

I thought the problem was just the channel leading into the chamber...I never even considered the possibility of crud in the chamber itself. I did have the breech end immersed in hot water, using a tight swab and patch to pump water in and out of the nipple hole. I wasn't able to get the solution flowing nearly as well as my other guns...I'll bet the chamber is still semi-plugged. Thanks for the tip.

 

[necchi]

Chances are very good that a previous owner shot the gun without cleaning the original packing oils or after heavily oiling the bore, the powder residue heat and oil in the fire channel can turn into a really hard deposit almost like Tar.
The only thing that'll break it down is a petroleum solvent.
When I run across such a situation I use the pump method you describe only with the breech submerged in a soup can with gasoline!! Follow up with brake cleaner then soapy water.

A lot of second hand guns are sold for this very reason, the owner can't get reliable ignition and sells the trouble to the next guy and it all starts with that anxious first few shot's through a breech/fire channel that wasn't cleaned properly before it was fired.

 

[robinsroost]

Most people here are against using modern cleaning products on muzzleloaders, BUT, they work just fine. Plug the nipple, I use a small square of inner tube, placed over the nipple and under the hammer. Then get a can of Outer's Foaming Bore Cleaner, or a similar product, and spray it down the bore until it reaches the end of the barrel. Set the gun in a corner, and let it set for 30 to 45 minutes. Then clean it again using hot soapy water, and you will be shocked at how much crud comes out. Foaming bore cleaner even loosens and removes copper deposits from modern guns. Then use a spray can of carburator cleaner to clean the nipple. The straw from a carb cleaner can just fits in a nipple...........Robin :stir:

 

[58CAL]

First the subs are going to be harder to ignite as they are flammables while real BP is an explosive. Second not only myself but many many other people have found the subs to be very corrosive even after really good cleaning. The stuff gets into the pores of the barrel and pits the hell out of it. Ask me how I know? Third real BP is available from Powder Inc and I believe it is cheaper than the subs even with the shipping and hazmat. Try real black your problems will go away. FRJ

 

[Billnpatti]

GASOLINE????? Whoa, that stuff is pretty dangerous. Wouldn't something less flammable such as kerosene, Varsol, mineral spirits or something work as well and be a lot safer? Just sayin'........

 

[Zonie]

Nah. Gasoline can't be dangerous.

Just ask your wife. I bet she doesn't care in the least if you have a gallon or two sitting around the house for the lawnmower.

But........., this same rational woman will act like doomsday is just around the corner if you have a half pound of blackpowder sitting around the house.

:grin:

PS: I agree there are safer things to use to cut grease and stuff.

 

[necchi]

Yeah, I know, gas is some nasty stuff to work with when it's not in a gas tank.
But it sure cleans that nasty fouling out.
I'm always hesitant to advise using it, but haven't found anything that works as good.
A soup can, is all that's needed and it doesn't need to be full, a "cup" maybe,,

 

[cowpoke1955]

As billnpatti mentioned, sub powders have a higher ignition temp and mag caps will help. Another thing that will help is change your nipple to a Spitfire: http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=14128 or a Hot Shot: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1 .They are designed to deliver more flash to the powder charge. Be sure to get the 6 X .75 threads. I have Spitfire nipples on my .54 GPR and ,y .54 Trade Rifle. Works great :thumbsup:

 

[Billnpatti]

Please don't do it in your garage even if it is "only a cup" of gasoline. If that can spills and the vapors get to a source of ignition it'll be Katy bar the door. A cup of gasoline can make a really big ball of fire. Do the cleaning outside well away from the house and any source of ignition. Be darned careful, I enjoy reading your comments and postings. I'd like to keep you around for a while.

 

[johnwm]

Just an update on this thread. I appreciate all the info provided here, and was looking around for magnum caps when I actually stumbled upon a source for real black powder. Admittedly, when buying it I was treated as though I were trading on the black market for weapons-grade plutonium, but when I finally got it home it was great! The Investarms shoots beautifully with real BP and the standard caps, and my Deerstalker likes it just as well as the last can I bought several years ago. And the smell-and-smoke are so much nicer than Triple7! And BP deer season opens here in three days...I have enough time to sight-in and get ready!!

For any Canucks who may be out there reading this, the BP is at Cabela's distribution centre in Winnipeg, Manitoba and can be sent to any Canadian Cabela's location for in-store-pickup. Prepare yourself...you already know what it's like to buy ammo or smokeless powder in Canuckistan...just wait until you go to buy BP!

 

[jerem0621]

I agree! I had heard so much negative about black powder from the substitute shooters I know.

I tried the real stuff, cleans easier, smells better, and shoots much much much much better.

Love me some BP!!

Jeremiah

 

[Patocazador]

One thing to consider that no one else brought up: make sure that your cap is down all the way on the nipple. Not all # 11 caps fit all nipples. Take a popsickle stick or other flat non-metal tool and press hard with the flat part to insure it's bottomed out. If that's your problem, you may have to buy different brands of caps to find the right one .. or change nipples.

 

[fearless51]

I had a rifle custom made by a fella and after getting it to the range I kept experiencing misfires and pert near wore the nipple threads out removing it to pour in the FFFF. I got to know some of the more experienced guys and one took me under his wing. It seems alot of the problems associated with misfires are often due to the poorly designed channel that feeds the fire from the nipple to the powder charge. He went to the trouble of bringing me over to his shop and pulling my breech plug where he showed me this tiny channel and the fact that it was barely 1/8" wide and came into the nipple channel at approximately 11:00, he told me to open up the cone at the breech, polish it and open up that hole into the nipple channel from 11:00-as close to 2:00 as threads permit. I did that, reinstalled the plug and it worked so well that when I poured FF down the barrel it would trickle out the nipple hole, no problems associated with misfires since. Patent breeches are the catsass when it comes to cleaning a rifle but can often lead to problems associated this way, some of the companys like Lyman fix that by drilling straight across and plugging on the outside, as did Browning and I think to some degree Pedersoli. Thats the cheap fix. If you have continual problems with misfires you can also try venting the nipple or venting the plug screw. Flintlocks foul much less than percussion rifles because so much of the fouling gets blown out the vent, if you vent your nipple or clean-out plug you will accomplish much the same manner. Be sure to remember that you are venting off to that side and warn others or install a shield, it does work.

 

[Kylongrifle]

I see a lot of guys complain about traditional muzzleloader misfires and hangfires..Honestly, its mostly deer hunters that run out and trade for one two days before muzzleloading season and have 0% exp with them. The two biggest reasons I see are replacement powders with underpowered caps(hangfires) and guys that shoot the rifle the day before. clean it and bath it in 3-in-1 oil.Then the breach is full of oil and oily wet powder..i also saw one guy this year who could only get his rifle to shoot on the second snap..He wasn't seating his caps down(replacement nipple)

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I whole-heartedly agree on the oil issue! And the same guys who soak the gun in oil the day before they load it are the same ones who store it muzzle-up so all of the excess oil rolls down into the flash channel!

If you must oil the gun prior to going hunting, make sure to store it muzzle-down for at least a day and also make sure to snap at least 2-3 caps prior to loading your first charge! Doing this will make sure the gun goes BANG when you want it to!

Dave