Match gun?

[fw707]

This post might have been better placed in the "accuracy" forum, but since it's about a flintlock rifle I thought I'd post it here.
Could some of you guys who shoot matches on a regular basis give me some idea of the guns you shoot, and why you have them set up the way you do? I've always bought hunting guns, but I've been shooting some local matches lately and it's a lot of fun. I'd like to get a rifle set up for target shooting only and I really don't know where to start.
Any suggestions on barrels, calibers, sights, stocks, and anything else would be greatly appreciated. appreciated.
Thanks! :wink:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening fw707,

Would you like to try to be a bit more specific in your own idea of a match rifle?

There are a number of catagories for match rifle shooting. For example here are just a few: offhand shooting, cross-sticks shooting, chuck gun shooting.

This is offered just to try help you understand that there is more than one kind of "match rifle".

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Politicians Lie!! US Freedoms Die!!!

 

[MikeChapin]

Depends upon what you mean by a match rifle. All of my rifles have been used in matches at one time or another. I also use the same rifles for hunting.

The styles of the rifles run the gamut from heavy Hawkens to slim Tennesse styles with calibers running from .32 to .58.

They all have open iron sights because that is what is required for matches in this area.

Around here there can be several different matches at a shoot. There are flint and percussion matches, squirrel gun for .40 and under and big bore for .58 and above.

My favorite for matches is a .53 Santa Fe Hawken. It will put them anywhere I aim. Me aiming properly is another story.

My favorite flint competion rifle is a .50 Tennesse. For squirrel gun I usually use a .32 I built a couple of years ago. For the big bore, I use a .58 full stock Hawken I built about the same time.

For many years I competed with a CVA Mountain Rifle and a .36 flinter that I built about thriry years ago. Both of those rifles brought home a lot of plunder.

My main point is that any rifle that fits you and puts the ball where you want it will fit the bill. There is no magic configuration. The major factor is the shooter and that usually means lots of practice.

 

[fw707]

Sorry bout that. I shoulda been more specific.
Offhand matches at 25, 50, and 100 yards.
I was just wondering what you would build for YOUR ideal rifle?

 

[cowpoke1955]

I agree with Mike. I have shot in several matches. All have required open iron sights and round balls, so the slower twist barrels were better. Some matches require fixed sights only. On paper targets any caliber will do. If they have metal targets, the larger calibers work better. I have used my .54 GPR and my .45 Pedersoli Blue Ridge and done very well with both.

 

[MikeChapin]

Sorry bout that. I shoulda been more specific.
Offhand matches at 25, 50, and 100 yards.
I was just wondering what you would build for YOUR ideal rifle?

For shooting paper matches you want something that is light enough and mild enough to shoot so you can shoot all day without beating yourself to death. When you are shooting 60 to 80 rounds a day at a paper match a heavy rifle with heavy recoil will grind you down pretty fast.

For a flint rifle I would probably build a .45 Lancaster style with a 42" swamped or tapered barrel and a good reliable lock such as a Chambers or L&R with good set triggers. The quality lock is very important for reliablity.

The longer barrel for the longer sighting plane and the swamp or taper for a balanced piece that keeps you from tiring from using a front heavy rifle all day. The .45 would be low recoil with target loads of 40 to 50 grains for 25 and 50 and 60 to 70 for 100 yards. The .45 is a very accurate caliber and bucks the wind well for 100 yard shooting.

For percussion I would go with a .45 Ohio type half-stock with a 42" tapered barrel. The lock isn't as important here. Most percussion locks will do the job.

These are my two ideal types for paper punching. One day I will get around to building them. Others will have ideas that suit their tastes.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Sorry bout that. I shoulda been more specific.
Offhand matches at 25, 50, and 100 yards.
I was just wondering what you would build for YOUR ideal rifle?

To me and for what I've built for use in flint competition have been four Dickert Style flintlock rifles,,, two with 36" brls, and two with 42 inch barrels, all four with Large Siler Lock's. All with low fixed sights.

Dickert Rifle #1: .40 x 7/8 x 36" Ed Rayl barrel with 1 in 72 twist, round bottom rifling. It's a tac driver with any load and can handle the heavy loads as well, up to 70 grains of 3fg Goex, and the loads depend on what I'm shooting at in competition, but for standard work at a Rondy, 45 grains work real good.

Dickert Rifle #2: .45 x 7/8 x 36" GMB with 1 in 60 twist. It also is a tac driver when using either 55 and 65 grains of 3fg Goex and a patched .445 RB.

Dickert Rifle #3: .45 x 13/16 x 42 GMB with 1 in 60 twist. It likes 45 and 55 grains of 3fg Goex and the .445 patched RB. However, this rifle is best used for hunting and Woods Walk gong shooting at Rondy's... It's not good for paper shooting shot after shot after shot, simply because the thin barrel heats up to quick and you get a heat mirage. It's a pleasure to carry in the woods however!

Dickert Rifle #4: .45 x 7/8 x 42 GMB with 1 in 60 twist. It likes 45, 55, 65, and 70 grains of 3fg Goex, and is my favorite for all around shooting and hunting. It does weigh in at 9.25 pounds, which allows it to hang comfortably while aiming at any target, though we are all different in size and what's comfortable for me is not always true for other folks. this rifle gets the most use where a flintlock is required, and even when it's not. You might say it's my go to rifle...

I have other rifles I've made for different matches but I won't go into them as it sounds as if you're going for a flintlock. Flintlocks take a little mastering but it's not as hard as one thinks, and they are a joy to shoot! :thumbsup:

 

[faw3]

I should of ask you this one John, I got into trying to read up on the Blue Mts Pa Shoots after seeing the thing about "shooting match in 1729" and Lee Heister's 2" wide barreled bench rifle hat the lock got lost in the stock it reminded me of the pic of your rifle on here sometime back, do you or anyone know who to get a hold of just for more info on this type of shooting, a 45 cal PRB and a 2" wide barrel? Fred

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening fw707,

If you want something different, unusal, and very, very seldom seen at a primitive shoot or on a more formal competition line, consider an English Sporting/Hunting Flintlock Rifle.

This is a halfstock style with lines strongly resembling a Hawken. The English rifle uses a shotgun type buttplate, is very comfortable to shoot and features things like a checkered wrist and water buffalo horn fore end tip.

They are the type of fine rifle a wealthy man touring the Early West would carry.

A 1," 50 caliber barrel, 32-34" long will make up into a fine comp rifle. a fine hunting rifle, and be period correct in just about any camp. Anybody who would tell you that this type of rifle never saw the Old West, has just told you how little they know about that subject.

It has been suggested by more than one historian that Jake and Sam Hawkins were influenced by the styling and architecture of these English rifles.

My next project will be one of these rifles. Done correctly, they are a striking rifle and attention getter.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

Politicians Lie!! US Freedoms die.

 

[Ohio Joe]

John, I agree, that is correct about the English Sporting Rifle.

I have read accounts about them, such as the English hunters who found two men not far from the Platte River who were in pitiful shape, close to starvation and no flint's for their rifles. The English hunters helped them out, and I'm of the opinion they (the English hunters) would have been carrying those Sporting Rifles.

There is another account of a mountain man who was either leading a group of English hunters as a guide, or he happened on to them? Any way, they compared their rifles by having a shooting contest.

There is a lot of what is thought to be uncommon, but in reality is common. The best example I can think of would be a person protraying an English hunter in the west during the 1830's, carrying an American made rifle. I just don't think that would have been common. Me thinks he would be carrying an English rifle. :v

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Evening Ohio Joe,

I too, have read various accounts of shooting matches between the English rifles and American rifles. One story in particular has the writer bragging about the superior accuracy of the American rifle with it's slow twist deep groove rifling over the English rifle with it's more shallow groove rifling.

Does something about that sound familar today?

To put all of that into proper context, one must date these stories and period date the developement of the English Sporting rifle. It then, becomes evident, that in the beginning, the English gunsmiths built hunting rifles with shallow groove rifling and the "quick' twist rate of about 1-48".

Remember, the English gunmakers,as compared to the American gunsmiths, came late into the rifled barrel hunting rifle. The English gunsmiths were more noted for their fowlers. It took awhile for them to understand the advantage of a rifled barrel in the hunting field.

Evidently the English gunmakers were quick learners. They adopted the deep groove rifling and even slower rifling twist than 1-48". While Jake, Sam, and the other boys were content to stay with the 1-48" rifling twist, the English were most willing to experiment with slower rifling twists.

The gunsmiths such as Manton, were not stupid and were quick to capitalize on better ideas.

What is often overlooked, ignored, or just not known by the average American ML shooter is that the English were exploring and settling in Africa in the 1700's and had a real need for a rifle with a caliber much larger than .53 caliber for animals like elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, and lions.

If you ever have the opportunuty to examine/compare inside and out, an English Sporting rifle made by someone like Manton to one of our American makers, you will see a tremendous difference.

Those English guns of that day and time make our American Hawken, Hoffman, Campbell, and others look second rate in every aspect of the gunsmih's craft. The locks in particular, both flint and caplock, are put together with almost clock-work precision, and work as if on jeweled bearings.

The half dozen or so original English sporting rifles I had had the opportunity to examine and shoot over the years were far superior in every aspect, from craftsmanship to shooting accuracy.

There is no doubt that the English Sporting rifle was was much, much more expensive and better made than even the expensive (as compared to others) Hawken, but that would be expected. The English gunmakers did not make arms for the average Brit. and it was only the rich English class that had the financial means to travel abroad and buy these fine rifles for hunting.

Even then, the English did not have the tradition of the common man being armed.

Is that to say that every Englishman carried Manton? No..., I can visualize where an Englishman traveling in the American West would become enamored with the idea of hunting and have to buy an American made rifle.
Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, why not?
I am carrying your load.

Politicians Lie!! US Freedoms die!!!

 

[Ohio Joe]

Is that to say that every Englishman carried Manton? No..., I can visualize where an Englishman traveling in the American West would become enamored with the idea of hunting and have to buy an American made rifle.
Best regards and good shooting,

Hello John,

Good post up above! :hatsoff:

While I agree with the above quote, I do have a hard time trying to visualize an Englishman carrying anything but an English made rifle while coming to America to hunt. I think they would have brought there own along with them, though I would not rule out the possibilty that they may have purchased a second rifle (American made) to take along on the hunt, once here.

As you pointed out the English gun makers did not cator to the common Englishman, therefore I don't believe the common Englishman could afford the passage from England to America, and then to outfit themselve's with what would be needed for such a North American hunting expedition. This seems to have been reserved for the well-to-do.

Some day when I get the time I will go over to the Museum of the Fur Trade, (Chadron NE) and do a little research on this. They allow members from our local Fur Trade Club to do research on request in their library, and it sure doesn't hurt knowing and being on good terms with the folks there.

Matter of fact, the Curators' husband and I will be heading out to our State ML Shoot over Labor Day. He also is employed by the Nebraska Historical Society, and has quite a bit of knowledge of the firearms that were used during America's western fur trade days. I'm sure we'll have us a good visit about this during our six hour drive to State Shoot... :thumbsup:

 

[Robbo]

Good Evening Ohio Joe,

Is that to say that every Englishman carried Manton? No..., I can visualize where an Englishman traveling in the American West would become enamored with the idea of hunting and have to buy an American made rifle.
Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

John

You might be interested to note that if you ever visit Blair Castle near Pitlochry in Scotland (home to some old noble family - Dukes of Athol???? or was it Argyle??) you should look in their armoury. Along with some wonderful Purdey ML stalking rifles and some by other makers, they also have an American Longrifle - an original Dickert as I recall.

Aparrently, as you surmised, one of the chinless wonders was travelling in the US in the late 1700's and picked up a local rifle, probably as a supplement to whatever he brought with him from Scotland. And its still there .....

Cheers

Robbo

 

[fw707]

John, is that the new rifle shown on the Chambers website?

 

[Dickert54cal]

I didnt have the money for several custom guns so I took alot of time to look at a variety of styles that would give me a gun that could "do all I needed it to". I came up with a 'Dickert style' gun that sports a 44' LC Rice Barrel in a 54 cal. The lock is a Large Delux Siler by Jim Chambers. Ive take a 1st place on a squriel target at one competition shoot this year...That made me pretty darn proud of 'Elisabeth'. With it being a 54 cal..there is nothing I cant hunt with it in North America....well a Grizzly or Polar Bear may make me run the other way. :grin:

 

[fw707]

Thanks everybody for the replies.
I guess I should have been more specific with my question. I was wanting to know what most of y'all would recommend for offhand, flintlock paper target matches. My main concerns were a barrel weight and length that would be easiest to keep a steady hold with, a caliber that's known to be usually accurate, a flintlock that would be really fast on ignition, and a stock configuration that would settle into the shoulder really well.
I apologize for being so vague with my question, and I appreciate all the replies. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The .40 caliber tends to rule target shooting these days. The length of barrel really depends on how you hold the gun when you shoot off-hand. With the smaller caliber, you can use a lighter barrel, and still have a long barrel with long sight radius. But, I like a 36-38 inch barrel personally, and think its front heavy enough. a swamped barrel should be considered if you are shooting off-hand a lot.

As for Flintlocks, I don't think you can go wrong with a Chambers/siler lock. They are well made, and fast. The stock has to be fit to your body build, so the style of gun is also difficult to advise you about. When I began looking to buy my first rifle, I spent 2 years going to every store, and every black powder shoot in the area, so that I could look at a wide variety of guns. I asked people if I could handle their rifles, and got a chance to shape my own idea of what will work for me.


A couple of years back, my brother had a gun builder make two fowlers, and gave me one as a birthday present. He had consulted with me for months over stock dimensions, and barrel length, weight, etc. We are 6' tall and I am a bit taller than that. We ended up with a 13 3/4" LOP, a 4 inch drop at heel, 2/12" drop at comb, and 4" down Pitch on a 30 inch barreled .20 ga. fowler. The gun mounts to my shoulder easily, and I am looking down the barrel at my front bead. It has enough weigh forward when I move my forehand back to touch the front of the trigger guard, that the gun settles down for Off-hand shooting of roundball. But, when I hold the stock as I would a shotgun, and shoot shot loads, the balance is good enough to allow me to maintain my swing through the target.

For an Off-hand only gun, I would personally choose a 38 inch barrel. I have handled longer guns, but they are too muzzle heavy for my taste. I know many shooters who shoot 42 and 44 " barrels and shoot them all day long. Its just not my cup of tea. Try out various barrel lengths and make up your own mind. We measure the LOP, Drop, and Pitch on many shotguns and rifles before settling on the dimensions for our fowlers. I have several rifles with longer LOPs, but they also have less drop in the stock, and a lot less down Pitch. Increasing the amount of Pitch allows for the use of a shorter stock, which often aids in setting the balance of point of a long barreled gun back between your hands properly. The Drop of the stock pretty much has to depend on how long a neck you have.

 

[Dickert54cal]

One more thing comes to mind with a barrel----some take a 'breaking in' but Rice makes a hunters grade and a competition grade now. I only buy the competition grade for just a couple more dollars---they have been accurate from the first shot!!!