Lyman rifles

[F.G. Ford]

Lyman GPR question:

Did Lyman ever produce a GPR in .58 Cal.?
They should have!
Fred

 

[Cowboy]

No, not that I was ever aware of? I also agree they should! I have a Sharon Hawken in .58 Cal. It definitely hits with authority!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[BigBoreBLR]

No,

They used to make it in 45, and you could get left handed guns in all calibers. Just 50, 54, and 50 in lh.

There is a guy in pa many use here to freshen their bores larger. I would be surprised if he didn't bore out lyman 15/16th's barrels to 58.

 

[RedFeather]

Problem with that is someone will want to push it. I would like a bit thicker barrel wall. And that sharp butt would likely leave a mark, especially snugged into the shoulder vs out on the arm. My old Zoave with full loads graced my shoulder with the loveliest shades of purple and green when I first shot Minies wearing only a t-shirt. 😣

 

[BrownBear]

Lyman GPR question:

Did Lyman ever produce a GPR in .58 Cal.?
They should have!
Fred

Well, sort of. Lyman rifles are made by Investarms, and in fact Investarms produced 58 caliber rifles with 15/16" barrels for Cabelas. I have one and it's a good couple of pounds lighter than either of my GPRs (50 and 54 cal). The thinner barrel along with the shorter barrel (28" as I recall, compared to the 32" of the GPR) accounts for the lighter weight.

It's a treat to carry, though the thinner barrel along with the dovetail cuts make me nervous about shooting really heavy loads. Mine is quite accurate and it sees a lot more miles in the hills than my GPRs for the larger ball and the lighter weight.

You won't see 15/16" barrels in 58 caliber any more for concern that they are too thin and guys are likely to get carried away with the powder charges. But if you see one of those 58 caliber Investarms/Cabelas, snag it cuzz they're hard to come by. It even has a patch box.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Problem with that is someone will want to push it. I would like a bit thicker barrel wall. And that sharp butt would likely leave a mark, especially snugged into the shoulder vs out on the arm. My old Zoave with full loads graced my shoulder with the loveliest shades of purple and green when I first shot Minies wearing only a t-shirt. 😣

Hi,
We Canadians are sooo tough we hold the butt plate against our top lip, so we can really look down the barrel, to see our sights well. :yakyak: :hmm: :bull:
Fred

 

[F.G. Ford]

Lyman GPR question:

Did Lyman ever produce a GPR in .58 Cal.?
They should have!
Fred

Hello again,
I just put a .58 ball on the muzzle of my .54,
Lots of metal left for a potent, light rifle.
With the patent breech that the Lyman has, there would be no problem.
The barrel lug dove tails if cut adequately shallow would leave lot of metal, and the lug is far enough down the barrel, so pressures are way down by then.
Fred

 

[Zonie]

I seem to recall, many of the custom barrel makers won't make a rifle with a 15/16" octagon, .58 caliber rifled barrel, even if the size of the breech plugs threads are large enough to accommodate the rifling diameter. :hmm:

Doing a little math, we have a bore of .580.
With rifling grooves .015 deep, the rifling diameter works out to .610.

15/16 is .9375" in diameter or, flat to flat on a octagon.

.9375" - .610" = .3275" and that divided by 2 results in a .16375 thick wall.

If the rear sight dovetail is 1/16", (.0625") deep, the barrel wall under the dovetail would be .16375 - .0625 =.10125".

That's .02375 less than 1/8" (.125").

Back in the days prior to the Civil War the military did a bunch of experimenting to find a safe minimum barrel wall thickness.

The answer they chose was .200 min in the area of the chamber.
Notice that even without the dovetail, my calculation says the purposed barrel is less than that.

Now, someone will say the big .58 doesn't make as much pressure as a smaller caliber and that is generally true.
It is also true that some people will shoot hell for stout powder loads under heavy slugs in their guns so, I looked up some pressure information in the Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL , 2nd edition.

Did you folks know, a 555 grain Maxi bullet loaded over 140 grains of Goex 2Fg powder recorded a barrel pressure of 14,400 psi?

That, IMO, is a LOT of pressure. Especially if it is fired in a low carbon, fairly weak steel.

I agree with those who say if the barrel is made out of a alloy steel it shoudn't be a problem but, the barrels on our typical factory made muzzleloader is not made out of alloy steel.
It is just plain old low carbon steel. :hmm:

Maybe there is a good reason the custom barrel makers won't make a rifled .58 caliber barrel if they have to use a 15/16" barrel?

 

[bubba.50]

I bought one of the Lyman 58cal barrels with the intent to use it in one of my T/C stocks. it was not a true 15/16ths across the flats. it wouldn't go in a Hawken stock & was loose in a Renegade stock.

 

[BrownBear]

Did you folks know, a 555 grain Maxi bullet loaded over 140 grains of Goex 2Fg powder recorded a barrel pressure of 14,400 psi?

That, IMO, is a LOT of pressure. Especially if it is fired in a low carbon, fairly weak steel.



Maybe there is a good reason the custom barrel makers won't make a rifled .58 caliber barrel if they have to use a 15/16" barrel?

You won't get me to load above my self-imposed max of 100 grains of 2f behind a PRB in my Investarms/Cabelas 15/16" 58 caliber. And it will never see a conical down its bore. But then again, I'm real conservative with my fingers and eyes.

The problem for barrel makers/reborers is that everyone is not as conservative as I am, and there's a tendency these days for folks to blow their nose at "factory" max pressures, then blame the manufacturers if anything fails. I sure wouldn't shinny out on that limb if my living depended on my reputation for safe, quality barrels.

 

[F.G. Ford]

In reply to Zoni's reply....well he says it all, and rightly so.
I'm a retired machinist and should know better.......it's a bummer when you get an "F" in math class.
There is NOT enough metal left.
Good reason the Lyman or other makers did not make a .58 with a 15/16 barrel.
Thank you for the wise words.
Now I have to figure out how to fit a 1 1/8" barrel into my Lyman rifle stock??
Fred

 

[BrownBear]

Now I have to figure out how to fit a 1 1/8" barrel into my Lyman rifle??

Lotta 1" 58 cal barrels out there, so you shouldn't have to go quite so large.

Quite a few years ago I picked up from The Gun Works in Oregon a TC Hawken that had been fitted with a 24" 58 caliber barrel tapered from 1 1/8" at the breech to 15/16" at the muzzle. Dunno if The Gun Works did the job themselves, but since it was an Oregon barrel, I bet they know who did.

Since it was an original TC 15/16" stock, some significant woodwork was done along the way. Frankly I've never laid it alongside a standard stock to figure out how they did it. All I was interested in was a short quick 58, and it certainly lives up to that.

You might give them a call and see what you can learn. It certainly worked, but I'm not qualified to do the woodwork the builder accomplished.

 

[mooman76]

I ran my 58 up to 110gr with a 520gr conical with not ill effects. That was not typical for me to shoot that heavy. I was just testing hunting loads. I settled on 80gr of powder. Maybe the barrels on those were not typical ML barrels and were alloyed to withstand heavy loads being 15/16.

 

[Howie1968]

I have one got it last year its starting to get carried a lot more than my other Hawkens for the exact reasons you state. I use 80 grains pyro 2F .018 patch and a.570 roundball. its one of my favorite and most accurate guns

 

[F.G. Ford]

I ask this question, because Last year I built a Leman .58 Cal. flint in .58 cal., with a 1" X 36" barrel.
It looks a lot like a Lyman at first glance, but has subtle differences.
I must admit that I used a Lyman for example, but has an L&R lock, L&R set triggers.
The stock is about 1" shorter, and the trigger guard is longer and flat extension at wrist area.
This was an attempt to make a fantasy plains rifle with a 1/2 stock and being flint.
Apparently Leman did make these, and yet there have been no found Hawken rifles of this design.
The gun is a very fine shooter.
My next quest is to make a .69 cal. plains rifle to hunt Canadian squirrels. They are knarly and feisty with attitude, like a pit bull. :bull: :wink:
Should be good for moose as well.
Fred

 

[BrownBear]

Should be good for moose as well.

Sounds like a very good plan. My 58's, 62's and 72's do absolutely nothing for my itch to have a 69. Keep us posted! :hatsoff:

 

[F.G. Ford]

I am just finishing a .69 cal. plains pistol to accompany the plains rifle.
The .69 barrel was too long for a plains rifle, at 43" long so I cut 11" and used it to make the plains pistol.
The .69 flint pistol is a handful of a gun.
One advantage of a pistol of a calibre of this size, looking down the barrel at ten paces, you can see that it is loaded with you name on the ball. :shocked2:
I always carve happy faces on a ball of this size :bull:
Have a great day!
Fred

 

[Tom Compton]

“I always carve happy faces on a ball of this size”

😹. GREAT!

Smile. Watch for flash.

 

[Pete44ru]

Doing a little math, we have a bore of .580.

With rifling grooves .015 deep, the rifling diameter works out to .610.

15/16 is .9375" in diameter or, flat to flat on a octagon.

.9375" - .610" = .3275" and that divided by 2 results in a .16375 thick wall.

If the rear sight dovetail is 1/16", (.0625") deep, the barrel wall under the dovetail would be .16375 - .0625 =.10125".

That's .02375 less than 1/8" (.125").

FWIW, the minimum barrel wall thickness @ the muzzle for re-boring much higher pressure CF metallic bores (like the .30-06) is .125"

I would opine that BP charges develop much less pressure than high-power metallic cartridges do (like, 50,000psi).

 

[Adui]

Doing a little math, we have a bore of .580.

With rifling grooves .015 deep, the rifling diameter works out to .610.

15/16 is .9375" in diameter or, flat to flat on a octagon.

.9375" - .610" = .3275" and that divided by 2 results in a .16375 thick wall.

If the rear sight dovetail is 1/16", (.0625") deep, the barrel wall under the dovetail would be .16375 - .0625 =.10125".

That's .02375 less than 1/8" (.125").

FWIW, the minimum barrel wall thickness @ the muzzle for re-boring much higher pressure CF metallic bores (like the .30-06) is .125"

I would opine that BP charges develop much less pressure than high-power metallic cartridges do (like, 50,000psi).

Very true, but firearms of the type you mention are also made of stronger steel to withstand the pressures. Meanwhile many black powder arms are made of milder easier to work steel that is therefore weaker.