Can anyone give me some insight into Loyalist Arms rifles? In particular I am looking at the TULLE Fusil de Chase and the English Trade Rifles. Who makes the barrels and locks and are they made in this country? Hows the fit and quality of these guns? Any info would be appreciated greatly. Thanks. Tom
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Loyalist Arms info
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yellowdawg
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Tom,
The barrels are made in India and are not made with the best quaility metal. These rifles do contain a lot of hand work and I've heard the locks are fine but their is no proofing on the barrel. Dixie Guns Works has their Davide Pedersoli Trade Muskets on sale.
Thanks,
Greg Richardson
The barrels are made in India and are not made with the best quaility metal. These rifles do contain a lot of hand work and I've heard the locks are fine but their is no proofing on the barrel. Dixie Guns Works has their Davide Pedersoli Trade Muskets on sale.
Thanks,
Greg Richardson
Greg Richardson said:
Sorry, Greg, but that statement is absolutely unfounded. Can you quote where you got your information that the barrels are not made of the best quality metal. Or are you repeating 2nd hand information that you've heard. There is some folks on this forum who have been shooting these muskets for several years without a glitch. If you can prove, without a doubt, that the barrels are inferior, I will shut up! There has been ONE (quote ONE) Indian-made musket that has had a burst barrel under questionable conditions. There has also been one Pedersoli Brown Bess reported to have had a burst barrel.
The supposed questionable quality of these muskets has been hashed and rehashed numerous times on this forum. These muskets have many supporters and detractors on this forum.
yellowdawg
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Sir,
The intent of my message was to inform that the musket was made in India. I was not trying to offend anyone. If I did, I am sorry. The fact remains that the barrels are not proofed and the thickness of the metal is not the same as an ArmiSport or one of the other Italian made muskets. I was once entertaining the idea of ordering one myself. After reading the account of one blowing up, I changed my mind. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Greg Richardson
The intent of my message was to inform that the musket was made in India. I was not trying to offend anyone. If I did, I am sorry. The fact remains that the barrels are not proofed and the thickness of the metal is not the same as an ArmiSport or one of the other Italian made muskets. I was once entertaining the idea of ordering one myself. After reading the account of one blowing up, I changed my mind. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Greg Richardson
paulvallandigham
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Chaning your mind about something based on " What I heard ", will lead you to locking yourself in your house, in a closet, and never coming out! :youcrazy:
It is one thing to listen to some comment and investigate the matter yourself further, and quite another matter to make major decisions based solely on rumor. That is why gossip gets people into court, being sued for slander, and the cost to a person's reputation, or business, or both.
Some of us pursued this matter just to find out the real TRUTH about this reported blow-up. It became quite evident, to me, when the lightened picture was displayed on this forum, that the incident is another example of a bore obstruction. Someone, Not necessarily the owner, put something down that barrel before he fired it again. And, its quite clear that 100 grains of powder Was not the power source- it had to be multiple loads for this particular rupture to occur.
That may not be common knowledge. But, I have more than common knowledge experience with ruptured barrels, and have had one personal experience myself. I have saved the end of a shotgun barrel that blew on me, to show students in my Hunter Safety class What NOT to do, and what will happen if they ignore my teaching. :shocked2:
A friend who taught H-S for more than 40 years had a bag full of blown barrels, that he was given by a retiring gunsmith, that he brought to class to show students all the ways that both rifle and shotgun barrels are damaged. It is NOT DIFFICULT to understand from looking at the barrel What caused a rupture, once someone has taken you through the process of examination.
Replicas are being made from much better metal than was used in the originals. Even the softest of steels is better-stronger- than the best iron used in the day. So, the thickness of a barrel, compared to that on an orginal gun, should not be a deciding factor for anyone concerned about safety.
Years ago, I helped a friend build a light 6 pound field piece( cannon) and he ordered a barrel from South Bend Ordinance that was cast STEEL, and also had a 1/4" thick steel liner in the barrel for extra protection. The Steel liner was " proofed", or rated, strong enough to take all the pressure one could generate stuffing the barrel full of black powder and a couple of cannon balls, without the surrounding 500 lbs. of steel barrel! Now, no one is going to buy a " cannon barrel " that is made of 1/4" steel tubing, or pipe, because it just doesn't look like a cannon barrel! But, if the issue was only one of safety, the 1/4" thick steel barrel would do the job.
If you want to " Proof " a barrel, The Dixie Gun Works Catalogue has been printing material for years from old sources giving " Proof Loads " from various European Proof Houses. The problems with " proofing" is that such a charge only proves that the barrel did not rupture when that SHOT was fired. It does not tell you if the barrel won't blow on the next shot, or the 1,000th shot. The way to make guns work, and survive for your life time, and those of your children and grandchildren is to use reasonable loads, NOT PROOF LOADS, or anything approaching them, in the gun, and to do regular maintenance, cleaning and checks of the bore and exterior of the barrel. If there is any sign that something is not right- water leaking out the back of a breechplug was recently reported here-- get the gun to a qualified Black Powder gunsmith.
If you ever acquire an original barrel that is in bad shape, from years of corrosion, consider having a barrel liner, made of modern steel, put into the old barrel. This preserves the original barrel's exterior, while giving you new metal on the inside of the barrel to use for shooting. :hmm:
It is one thing to listen to some comment and investigate the matter yourself further, and quite another matter to make major decisions based solely on rumor. That is why gossip gets people into court, being sued for slander, and the cost to a person's reputation, or business, or both.
Some of us pursued this matter just to find out the real TRUTH about this reported blow-up. It became quite evident, to me, when the lightened picture was displayed on this forum, that the incident is another example of a bore obstruction. Someone, Not necessarily the owner, put something down that barrel before he fired it again. And, its quite clear that 100 grains of powder Was not the power source- it had to be multiple loads for this particular rupture to occur.
That may not be common knowledge. But, I have more than common knowledge experience with ruptured barrels, and have had one personal experience myself. I have saved the end of a shotgun barrel that blew on me, to show students in my Hunter Safety class What NOT to do, and what will happen if they ignore my teaching. :shocked2:
A friend who taught H-S for more than 40 years had a bag full of blown barrels, that he was given by a retiring gunsmith, that he brought to class to show students all the ways that both rifle and shotgun barrels are damaged. It is NOT DIFFICULT to understand from looking at the barrel What caused a rupture, once someone has taken you through the process of examination.
Replicas are being made from much better metal than was used in the originals. Even the softest of steels is better-stronger- than the best iron used in the day. So, the thickness of a barrel, compared to that on an orginal gun, should not be a deciding factor for anyone concerned about safety.
Years ago, I helped a friend build a light 6 pound field piece( cannon) and he ordered a barrel from South Bend Ordinance that was cast STEEL, and also had a 1/4" thick steel liner in the barrel for extra protection. The Steel liner was " proofed", or rated, strong enough to take all the pressure one could generate stuffing the barrel full of black powder and a couple of cannon balls, without the surrounding 500 lbs. of steel barrel! Now, no one is going to buy a " cannon barrel " that is made of 1/4" steel tubing, or pipe, because it just doesn't look like a cannon barrel! But, if the issue was only one of safety, the 1/4" thick steel barrel would do the job.
If you want to " Proof " a barrel, The Dixie Gun Works Catalogue has been printing material for years from old sources giving " Proof Loads " from various European Proof Houses. The problems with " proofing" is that such a charge only proves that the barrel did not rupture when that SHOT was fired. It does not tell you if the barrel won't blow on the next shot, or the 1,000th shot. The way to make guns work, and survive for your life time, and those of your children and grandchildren is to use reasonable loads, NOT PROOF LOADS, or anything approaching them, in the gun, and to do regular maintenance, cleaning and checks of the bore and exterior of the barrel. If there is any sign that something is not right- water leaking out the back of a breechplug was recently reported here-- get the gun to a qualified Black Powder gunsmith.
If you ever acquire an original barrel that is in bad shape, from years of corrosion, consider having a barrel liner, made of modern steel, put into the old barrel. This preserves the original barrel's exterior, while giving you new metal on the inside of the barrel to use for shooting. :hmm:
It looks to me like they missewd the PC boat on the French gun, I don't recall what the English gun was like in that repect, If I wanted an English or French gun I would get the parts from TOW or one of the other suppliers and build or have it built, Rustic arms offere both guns complete or in kit they may be a bit weak historicaly probably stocked in Maple, it looks to me like there is only 200-300 dollars difference twixt the Indian guns and some of the domestic made guns, I have to think the additional cost is well worth any wait envolved to get the funding. There are often very good deals on used guns on the various forums this can be an excellant way to get into a nice gun, it will probably have a maple stockand possibly the wrong lock but all in all would be a better buy IMHO than one of imports from India, to me when I look at the pics they just don't look right.If someone gave me one I would be inclined to send it back with a thanks but no thanks note attatched.
Greg Richardson said:
Hi all,
I guess I need to point out, because it keeps coming up time and time again, that there are currently NO proofing standards for Black Powder rifles and guns in the US. So saying they "aren't proofed" doens't "prove" anything.
Go find a made the the USA barrel and show me the proofing mark on it. You can't, because there aren't any standards set to meet to earn a proofing mark. That doesn't mean the Colerain, Rice, Green Mountain, and other barrels are unsafe. It just means there's not a proofing standard that they can be measured against here.
I believe Paul puts it very succinctly when he says that the metal barrels being made now are much better than those used in the originals. Metallurgy has come a long ways since the 1700's.
I know lots of people who have used these muskets for years with no problems. Yes they are made out of teak instead of walnut because you can't get walnut for a reasonable price in India, and yes they have a bit too much wood on them. Nonetheless they are certainly recognizable replicas of the guns they claim to represent.
You can certainly criticize them as not being as Period Correct as one from a domestic maker or one that you build from TOW or Rifle Shop parts, but enough with the "no proofing" already. :shocked2:
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Greg Richardson said:
Same is true of T/C. :haha:
No American made m/l has proof marks that I am aware of. The U.S. doesn't have a "Proof House" to send them to.
I don't think there are ANY standards for ML rifles. If you buy a Remchester centerfire, SAAMI will dictate pressure levels, chamber dimensions and bore diameter in the caliber of your choice. I currently own 5 American made ML 50 caliber rifles. Bore diameter varies from .498 to .503.
jchochole
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My 2 Pence,
I have fired Indian barrels live and multiple times in shoots and I have never had problems. I have seen guys put some real heavy buck and ball loads and the barrels have held just fine. Plus, the Indian springs are far superior to the Italian cheaply cast springs.
Enjoy,
Jim Chocole
I have fired Indian barrels live and multiple times in shoots and I have never had problems. I have seen guys put some real heavy buck and ball loads and the barrels have held just fine. Plus, the Indian springs are far superior to the Italian cheaply cast springs.
Enjoy,
Jim Chocole
jchochole said:
But a failed spring usually does not send people to the doctor or the morgue.
When we are talking about the Indian reproductions we must ask the following question.
Does the maker drill the vent or is it done by the seller or is it sold with no vent and a statement by the seller the drilling a vent voids the warranty as is the case with at least one seller of these things.
I get the feeling that the people that make these in India are making wall hangers and movie props. Then when they get to NA someone drills a vent in them or not.
The owner has to do his own proof.
I can only assume Canada has different liability laws than the US does.
But then the indian trade guns shipped to NA and Africa in the 18th and 9th centuries had very poor barrels and a lot of them failed so I guess there is some historical correctness with the trade guns at least.
Dan
Joel/Calgary
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Grantman said:
It can vary even wider. I have an early Pedersoli .50 with a .510 bore. I understand the specifications have been changed to .500 quite a while ago, though.
Joel
Hi Dan,
Only the "Discriminating General" Military Heritage delivers their muskets as "non-firing replicas" without a vent and posts on their website a disclaimer of liability if the vent is drilled to make it functional. Loyalist Arms and Middlesex Village Trading Company both deliver Indian made arms that have the vent drilled and are sold as functional flintlocks.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Only the "Discriminating General" Military Heritage delivers their muskets as "non-firing replicas" without a vent and posts on their website a disclaimer of liability if the vent is drilled to make it functional. Loyalist Arms and Middlesex Village Trading Company both deliver Indian made arms that have the vent drilled and are sold as functional flintlocks.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
So who does drill the vents?
I see brass barreled guns on at least one of these sites. Brass is NOT safe as a barrel material. BRONZE is brass is not.
Etc etc.
If ignorance is bliss there are a lot of happy people out there re-enacting.
Dan
I see brass barreled guns on at least one of these sites. Brass is NOT safe as a barrel material. BRONZE is brass is not.
Etc etc.
If ignorance is bliss there are a lot of happy people out there re-enacting.
Dan
This is a perfect example of taking a statement out of context. The Discriminating Generals website actually says, "Non-firing Statetwisted_1in66 said:
We sell historically accurate muskets as a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with local, state, national and international firearms regulations. A certified gunsmith may alter this musket to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state."
They don't sell these guns because they are non-shooters, but to get around gun import laws in this country. I have one that I had drilled. I talked to them on the phone before I drilled the vent hole. I have fired many, many rounds through mine and will continue to do so. The last statement is lawyer-driven CYA statement.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Bill S. said:
And all over Europe and the rest of the world. Good grief.... :shake: Face it, they are non-shooting "guns" and are sold that way. If you want to convert yours to a "shooter" and if you blow yourself up, you are on your own and they are completely covered.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
When it comes right down to it, isn't this all a little silly? The original question was about Loyalist, lets stick to that.
Russ T Frizzen
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Then why don't other manufacturers and custom makers issue the same caveat with their guns and not drill the vent?
