Loading for the men

[TFoley]

At the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805 that's how Lord Nelson was shot - targetted from the nearby upperworks of the French man-o'-war by a French Marine sharpshooter.

tac

 

[tenngun]

:hatsoff: Your a braver man then I am :rotf:

 

[smoothshooter]

I think it is more likely that in the rare occaisions that women would have been involved in the passing around of long guns in a skirmish, it may have been so one of them could have quickly run a " range rod " with a dampened patch on the end every few shots to keep the fouling down.

 

[smoothshooter]

If it fits down the bore in a rifle, it shoots too.

 

[shunka]

There are numerous "tales" of Rev War women carrying pitchers of water, bandages and loading muskets, but I have no sources at hand.

A brief search showed these original sources, an autobiography and a history of New Zealand:

from this autobiography:
https://books.google.com/books?id=...PT102#v=onepage&q=women reload musket&f=false

"Instead , these brave women stood next to their men at the railing, prepared to pass loaded
muskets to them, and then reload those already fired."

--------------------------------------------------------------------
and this http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/Musket_Wars

Likewise, Maori resorted to thumping the butt of the musket on the ground to settle the ball instead of using a ramrod. Maori favoured the use of the double barrel shot gun (Tuparra - two barrel) during fighting often using women to reload the weapons when fighting from a Pā (fortified village or hillfort).

The range and accuracy of a trade musket (40 m range) could not be compared with that of a proper military musket such as a Brown Bess or the later standard issue Enfield which required the less common fine grain black powder. Often Maori preferred the double barreled tupara (2 barrel) as they could fire twice before reloading. In some battles women were used to reload muskets while the men kept on fighting. Later this presented a problem for the British and colonial forces during the New Zealand Land Wars, when iwi would habitually keep women in the pā ( mud fort) .

yhs
shunka

 

[Elnathan]

Henrietta Arnow has a wonderfully evocative passage Seedtime on the Cumberland about an attack on a fort (French's Station?) in which she describes women reloading for them men, but I don't know what she is basing it on. It is a cultural rather than a narrative history, so it may be a composite description rather than a description of a single incident. For what it is worth, though, she describes them as loading rifles with unpatched balls and muskets with handfuls of rifle balls.

My impression is that a party with women and children in it that found itself under fire would send the women and children running for shelter while the men tried to cover their retreat. I wouldn't expect to see women loading under those circumstances. Behind the walls of a cabin or fort is another story.

Interesting discussion. I've been slowly gathering material on frontier combat - might eventually write a paper on it or something - and this is another thing to keep an eye on.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Interesting discussion. I've been slowly gathering material on frontier combat - might eventually write a paper on it or something - and this is another thing to keep an eye on.

I'd be very interested in reading that paper.... :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[azmntman]

:metoo: :thumbsup:

 

[Artificer]

My impression is that a party with women and children in it that found itself under fire would send the women and children running for shelter while the men tried to cover their retreat. I wouldn't expect to see women loading under those circumstances. Behind the walls of a cabin or fort is another story.

Agree, I should have mentioned I was referring to the wife and kids reloading in a cabin or fort.

There were also women who were as good or better shots than some to even most men. OR sometimes the kids would reload for Mom and Dad, if they were old enough. Other times the Wife and Daughters would reload for Dad and a Son - who was old enough to have been a good shot.

The book, "Frontier Women" by William Fowler has examples of some of these as well as an 17th century wife who wore bucksins and was as good of a shot and hunter as any man in her area.

Gus

 

[dodger]

The lyrics for the song " three wheels on my wagon " include a reference for the woman to " get back in the wagon " whilst being chased by Cherokees.
Yet in Mel Brook's film Blazing Saddles the women are clearly depicted riding up front with the men whilst being chased by Sioux .
Does this suggest a change of tactics according to territory ?
:rotf:

 

[nhmoose]

Women were not totally weak. Look up Hanna Dustin.

New world is trying to make her a profiting homicidal maniac.

However She was definitely a heroic woman IMHO.

 

[SgtErv]

After reading Col Joseph Smith's narrative, I learned a great deal about frontier combat. Check out Scoouwa, El Nathan, if you haven't already. It's an awesome read.

 

[54ball]

In about every old TV series or old movie, the men hand back their long guns to be loaded by the women and children. This seems pretty far fetched to me because of the very wide range of bore diameters. Seems impossible that anyone could keep straight loading multiple guns for someone. Anyone else ever give this any thought.

The women and children were placed in the lower story of the blockhouse, where some women busied themselves molding bullets.
The above is from the attack on Fort Sinquefield Sept. 1813.

To answer your question, It's pretty much a plot device. Plausible for some situations but really more of a plot device in fiction rather than "common practice" in documented history.

With enough defenders in ranks, a steady withering fire can be accomplished from a fortification. The front rank fires...retires...reloads.....next rank fires...retires....reloads and so on in a circular relay. Each trained defender reloads his own arm....much more efficient than passing arms.

Fewer defenders? Light infantry and Riflemen were trained to support each other in pairs. One fires, while the other reloads.

Single defender at a loop hole? Still for a defender, reloading his own gun is in my opinion more efficient than passing arms. Again passing arms is plausible but not as likely as depicted in historical fiction.

The following off the top of my head is what I have read.....
Armed Women dressed as men manning posts.....
Women running or molding ball...
Women shooting....
Women making cartridges...
Women boiling pots of water and pouring this on attackers...
Women bringing water....
Women retrieving powder....

 

[George]

The following off the top of my head is what I have read.....
Armed Women dressed as men manning posts.....
Women running or molding ball...
Women shooting....
Women making cartridges...
Women boiling pots of water and pouring this on attackers...
Women bringing water....
Women retrieving powder....

Don't forget chopping heads.

The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 2, 1788
PHILADELPHIA
Extract of a letter from Col. James Perry, in Nelson's county, Kentucky , to the Rev. Jordan Dodge, of Sturbridge, in Massachusetts, dated April 20.

"On the first of April inst. a number of Indians surrounded the house of John Merrill, which was discovered by the barking of a dog. Merrill stepped to the door to see what he could discover, and received three musket balls, which caused him to fall back into the house, with a broken leg and an arm; the Indians rushed on to the door, but it being instantly fastened by his wife, who stood against it, with a girl about 15 years of age, the savages could not immediately enter. The Indians broke one part of the door, and one of them crouded partly through; the heroic mother, in the midst of her screaming children and groaning husband, seized an axe, and gave a fatal blow to the savage, and he falling headlong into the house, the others, supposing they had obtained their end, rushed after him, until four of them fell in like manner, before they discovered their mistake; the rest retreated, which gave opportunity again to secure the door. The conquerors rejoiced in their victory, hoping they had killed the whole company; but their expectations were soon dashed, by finding the door again attacked, which the bold mother endeavoured once more to secure, with the assistance of the young woman; their fears now came on them like a flood; they soon heard a noise on the top of the house, and they found they were coming down the chimney; all hopes of deliverance were now at an end, but the wounded man ordered his little child to tumble a couch that was filled with hair and feathers on the fire, which made such a smother, that two lusty Indians came tumbling down the chimney; the wounded man, exerting every faculty in this critical moment, seized a billet of wood, with which he conquered the smothered Indians; at the same instant the woman aimed a blow at the door, but not with the same effect as the rest, but which caused him to retreat; they then secured the door as fast as possible, and rejoiced at their deliverance, but not without fear of a third attack; they carefully watched with their new family until morning, and were not again disturbed.
"We learn by a prisoner that made his escape from the Indians, that the wounded savage last mentioned was the only one that escaped at this time; on his return, he was asked, "What news brother?" "plaguy bad news," replied the wounded Indian, "for the squaws have taken the breech-clout, and fight worse than the long knives." This extraordinary affair happened at Newbardston, about fifteen miles from Sandy Creek, and may be depended on, as I had the pleasure to assist in tumbling them into a hole after they were stripped of their head-dresses, and about twenty dollars worth of silver furniture."

Spence

 

[Elnathan]

After reading Col Joseph Smith's narrative, I learned a great deal about frontier combat. Check out Scoouwa, El Nathan, if you haven't already. It's an awesome read.

I own and have read it. Lots of good stuff, but I don't recall it having much of what I am looking for.

 

[SgtErv]

Feel free to shoot me a list of stuff you're after. I took around in archives enough to see rhings that may be helpful to others. Col Broadhead's 8th PA at Fort Pitt starting in 1778 had s long and storied past, as well as some of the militia units in the upper Ohio is what I might be rhinking you need. If I'm way off, let me know.

I'm kind of doing the same, except analyzing what impact regular troops had in wilderness operations

The Darlington Digital Library is a great resource, too.

 

[Calum]

'morning,

Working my way through Scouting on Two Continents about the life of Maj Frederick Burnham. There are several passages about his wife fighting at his side.

Side comment, the book was suggested by Grumpa and it is a fascinating read about an extraordinary man.

Mike

 

[Gene L]

Without any documentation, I believe women reloaded for the shooters in forts during attacks, since there was little else they could do. Maybe not the most accurate loadings, but the object for defending a fort was to put lead in the air. Not the best process for sniping, but I feel a rifleman accurately loading a rifle while being attacked (and when more rifles than shooters were available) I see no reason why this common sense procedure wouldn't be done.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I believe the survivors shot and reloaded along side the men....Those that didn't perished or were captured.

 

[Artificer]

One heck of a lot would have depended on where the fort was placed and how it was built.

First, make sure the fort is situated so attackers can not fire down into the fort.

Next, you have to have water. So find a spring or dig a well that won't run dry. Women could boil water and hand kettles up to the men on the ramparts, or better still pour the boiling water down through the murder holes under the elevated block houses onto attacking foes. (They could also drop/throw stones through those murder holes.) Besides drinking, you also need water to put out fires.

Next, clear the land well around the fort so that no one could hide behind anything within rifle shot, if not at least musket shot range. DON'T allow anyone to build cabins or sheds within that range. This was a huge mistake that allowed George Rogers Clark's men to use that "cover" to get within 75 yards of the fort and pick off the small cannon gun crews as soon as they opened the gun ports. That kept them in the fort from using their artillery.

Make sure there are ways to get to the tops of any buildings or sheds inside the fort to put out fires. IOW make sure ladders are already made and available for that. Two ladders for each building.

Have plenty of water buckets to put out fires. Women could draw water, fill buckets and act as an ersatz fire brigade.

Men and women too old to do other things as well, could stay with the children to free up younger wives and older daughters to help with the things mentioned above. The older people would also tend the wounded and that would include heating irons to be used to cauterize wounds.

Matter of fact, if the fort was built well enough with these things in mind, most aggressors would not bother trying to attack such forts, unless there were huge numbers of attackers.

Gus