Load development and component testing

[dave951]

Ok for those who don't frequent this forum, I'm a competition shooter with Civil War arms in the North South Skirmish Association. As such, it's in my best interest to have the most accurate load I can come up with for shooting in our competitions. I believe that a number of muzzleloading enthusiasts will talk about Schultz' book as if it was something new, but if you're serious about accuracy, you will test every part of your load, your methodology, and strive to get the best results possible. For the purpose of this thread, I'd like to illustrate what can happen when changing out ONE component in a proven load.

First off, a picture of my standard goto load for musket Skirmishing. I shoot a Birmingham P58 Parker Hale that is glass bedded with a tuned lock. Trigger pull is 3.75lb, just heavy enough to be legal for our rules. I have long ago abandoned any use of cheap components as they aren't capable of giving these types of results. This load is the RCBS Hogdon, 42gr 3f Old E, RWS caps, beeswax/lard lube, 50yd, 5 shots.

For reasons outside this discussion, I'm using the Moose version of the Hogdon and previously determined it will shoot well within acceptable parameters. I've shot similar groups with this bullet but after some deep diving on other forums, I decided to run a test with this proven Skirmish load to determine if it could be either duplicated or improved. The only component I changed was lube. Take a look at the result. Range condition was overcast, 55F, dead calm. Load- Moose Hogdon, 42g 3f Swiss, RWS caps, coconut oil lube. First shot went high, not an unusual thing with muzzleloaders so the next 4 would be the test. Take a look at the target-

Yes, there were witnesses. There are 4 shots in one hole, 1/2 right of point of aim, but my gun hits a shade to the right. Our rules don't allow adjustable sights. Mine are standard post and notch. I don't know if I could ever replicate this, but I did shoot a group at 100yd a bit later as a test. Again, the load was the same, but conditions were now sunny, 55F, winds variable downrange and I was attempting to "dope" and compensate for them. I've come to the conclusion that might be akin to voodoo or the province of Santaria priests. So the group-

Again, first shot high, clean cold bore. Next 4 have a vertical dispersion of about 1in. Horizontal was about 5in and that's part me attempting to "dope" the wind and the fact that the Hogdon isn't known for dealing with wind too well. I feel if conditions were like when I shot that first group, this one would be well under 2in discounting that first shot. And again, a first shot flyer isn't unheard of in muzzleloading or in the realm of competition shooting.

The moral of this journey is that every component you use affects your accuracy. Get serious about it, use quality components, be willing to experiment outside the box, and most important- be methodical and change only one thing at a time and test. Results will prove if you've found the unicorn or not. I'll revisit this load next week with another bullet design I've been working with a bit.

 

[SwanShot]

I am an experienced re loader of those other things, but when I took up muzzle loading about ten years ago I had no idea that they were even more fussy about their loads, and more temperamental. It was a whole new learning curve.

 

[Artificer]

I am an experienced re loader of those other things, but when I took up muzzle loading about ten years ago I had no idea that they were even more fussy about their loads, and more temperamental. It was a whole new learning curve.

I began re-loading for modern stuff AFTER I was already into ML shooting and agree with your assessment, but I also found it made me a better re-loader because I did try different components (only one at a time) to find the best loads.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Ok for those who don't frequent this forum, I'm a competition shooter with Civil War arms in the North South Skirmish Association. As such, it's in my best interest to have the most accurate load I can come up with for shooting in our competitions. I believe that a number of muzzleloading enthusiasts will talk about Schultz' book as if it was something new, but if you're serious about accuracy, you will test every part of your load, your methodology, and strive to get the best results possible. For the purpose of this thread, I'd like to illustrate what can happen when changing out ONE component in a proven load.

First off, a picture of my standard goto load for musket Skirmishing. I shoot a Birmingham P58 Parker Hale that is glass bedded with a tuned lock. Trigger pull is 3.75lb, just heavy enough to be legal for our rules. I have long ago abandoned any use of cheap components as they aren't capable of giving these types of results. This load is the RCBS Hogdon, 42gr 3f Old E, RWS caps, beeswax/lard lube, 50yd, 5 shots.

View attachment 171556


For reasons outside this discussion, I'm using the Moose version of the Hogdon and previously determined it will shoot well within acceptable parameters. I've shot similar groups with this bullet but after some deep diving on other forums, I decided to run a test with this proven Skirmish load to determine if it could be either duplicated or improved. The only component I changed was lube. Take a look at the result. Range condition was overcast, 55F, dead calm. Load- Moose Hogdon, 42g 3f Swiss, RWS caps, coconut oil lube. First shot went high, not an unusual thing with muzzleloaders so the next 4 would be the test. Take a look at the target-

View attachment 171558

Yes, there were witnesses. There are 4 shots in one hole, 1/2 right of point of aim, but my gun hits a shade to the right. Our rules don't allow adjustable sights. Mine are standard post and notch. I don't know if I could ever replicate this, but I did shoot a group at 100yd a bit later as a test. Again, the load was the same, but conditions were now sunny, 55F, winds variable downrange and I was attempting to "dope" and compensate for them. I've come to the conclusion that might be akin to voodoo or the province of Santaria priests. So the group-

View attachment 171560

Again, first shot high, clean cold bore. Next 4 have a vertical dispersion of about 1in. Horizontal was about 5in and that's part me attempting to "dope" the wind and the fact that the Hogdon isn't known for dealing with wind too well. I feel if conditions were like when I shot that first group, this one would be well under 2in discounting that first shot. And again, a first shot flyer isn't unheard of in muzzleloading or in the realm of competition shooting.

The moral of this journey is that every component you use affects your accuracy. Get serious about it, use quality components, be willing to experiment outside the box, and most important- be methodical and change only one thing at a time and test. Results will prove if you've found the unicorn or not. I'll revisit this load next week with another bullet design I've been working with a bit.

Dave,

I could not agree more that changing a SINGLE component, when developing or after finding your accuracy load, can and often will cause noticeable, if not huge differences in accuracy. So I'm tickled pink to see this thread you started.

Here are some more "real world" examples.

I was chosen to replace the previous Team Armorer (who had to retire due to poor health) on the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team not long before the World Championships in 1996. As such and even though I was still pretty new to the Team, I was invited to attend a planning meeting with the Team's Higher Ups at the NRA HQ. I was previously informed any input I had would be welcomed, though the previous Team Armorer usually didn't give input at such meetings. So as an experienced Armorer for both high levels of ML and Modern shooting, I prepared a list of suggestions for the Team.

I had previously learned from our Team Captain that we were not going to be able to import Dupont Powder for those matches and we could only get Swiss powder. That set off HUGE alarm bells in my mind as most top tier U. S. shooters in Round Ball and Skirmishing used Dupont for their accuracy loads. At least in those days, Swiss powder was not as highly regarded as Dupont. So my first strongest suggestion was for ALL our shooters to be reminded they should buy some Swiss and use it to work up their accuracy loads before going to the World Championships. Now because many of our shooters were some of the best in the country with whatever they shot, most had already thought about that, but agreed it was a good thing to pass along as a reminder and also for our newer shooters. (Two of our shooters who ignored that advice and had won medals before, didn't medal that year because they didn't do it.)

Most of our shooters used RWS caps for their accuracy loads in either Round Ball or Skirmishing competitions and we could get those caps, so that wasn't a concern, except for a couple of shooters who used different caps. At least those two/three did try RWS caps and were pleased how their groups tightened up.

As I had seen SO MANY TIMES at Skirmishes and Round Ball matches worn nipples cause accuracy problems, I strongly suggested every percussion shooter buy at least two, if not three brand new nipples for each gun (12 for revolvers) and actually shoot them all to ensure they held up their accuracy loads shortly before leaving for the matches. One (or 6 on revolvers) that would be on the gun and at least one (or another set of 6 for revolvers) if not two as spares, especially if they had nonstandard thread original or repro nipples. One of our best Female Shooters ignored that advice and darn near lost her chance at medaling with her original underhammer percussion rifle because of it.

On the second practice day at the World Championships, nothing was going on when I left long enough to go to the "necessary facilities." I had already laid out my large assortment of modern and original nipple wrenches that fit every nipple used by the Team and had previously informed the Team they could use them to change their nipples or I would happily do it for them. Upon my return from the necessary, that same Lady was frantically going through my nipple wrenches and was in a bit of a panic she couldn't find one to fit the nipple on her original underhammer rifle. You may have guessed it, her nipple "blew out" on that day and her groups turned into shotgun patterns.

I calmed her down (an important part of an Armorer's Job) but inwardly I was thinking, "Uh Oh, I might not have a nipple that fit the non standard threads on her original rifle." I checked the threads on her nipple once I got it out and was relieved it was 1/4 x 28 tpi, the most common modern size. Later on I learned from another Team Member who had done the work three years earlier, that he had re-threaded the barrel three years earlier for a modern nipple.

After I installed the new nipple and while I was checking the rifle to see if there was any other mechanical problems, I asked her when the last time was that she had changed the nipple? She thought for a bit and replied a year and a half ago, someone had checked her rifle and the nipple was good, so she hadn't replaced it. (I later found out that nipple had been in the rifle over four years and she had shot a LOT with it in that time.) Now I knew her well as a friend from NSSA shoots over the years. So I replied, "Nancy, you were there at the planning meeting when I brought up changing nipples for this competition. I'm really surprised you of all people didn't follow that advice." Though she was a bit embarrassed, she grinned and said, "Well, I knew you would be here and fix any gun problems I had, so I didn't do it." I told her she was hugely and doubly lucky that someone had earlier rethreaded her barrel and I brought spares, or else she would have blown the entire trip. She recovered enough to stick her tongue out at me and went back to practice.

From this and earlier competitions is why I always recommend using a new nipple at the start of each shooting season if one competes with the gun. For Hunters, I recommend changing nipples every three years if one doesn't shoot much in the off season with their gun.

Gus

 

[dave951]

Dave,

I could not agree more that changing a SINGLE component, when developing or after finding your accuracy load, can and often will cause noticeable, if not huge differences in accuracy. So I'm tickled pink to see this thread you started.

Here are some more "real world" examples.

I was chosen to replace the previous Team Armorer (who had to retire due to poor health) on the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team not long before the World Championships in 1996. As such and even though I was still pretty new to the Team, I was invited to attend a planning meeting with the Team's Higher Ups at the NRA HQ. I was previously informed any input I had would be welcomed, though the previous Team Armorer usually didn't give input at such meetings. So as an experienced Armorer for both high levels of ML and Modern shooting, I prepared a list of suggestions for the Team.

I had previously learned from our Team Captain that we were not going to be able to import Dupont Powder for those matches and we could only get Swiss powder. That set off HUGE alarm bells in my mind as most top tier U. S. shooters in Round Ball and Skirmishing used Dupont for their accuracy loads. At least in those days, Swiss powder was not as highly regarded as Dupont. So my first strongest suggestion was for ALL our shooters to be reminded they should buy some Swiss and use it to work up their accuracy loads before going to the World Championships. Now because many of our shooters were some of the best in the country with whatever they shot, most had already thought about that, but agreed it was a good thing to pass along as a reminder and also for our newer shooters. (Two of our shooters who ignored that advice and had won medals before, didn't medal that year because they didn't do it.)

Most of our shooters used RWS caps for their accuracy loads in either Round Ball or Skirmishing competitions and we could get those caps, so that wasn't a concern, except for a couple of shooters who used different caps. At least those two/three did try RWS caps and were pleased how their groups tightened up.

As I had seen SO MANY TIMES at Skirmishes and Round Ball matches worn nipples cause accuracy problems, I strongly suggested every percussion shooter buy at least two, if not three brand new nipples for each gun (12 for revolvers) and actually shoot them all to ensure they held up their accuracy loads shortly before leaving for the matches. One (or 6 on revolvers) that would be on the gun and at least one (or another set of 6 for revolvers) if not two as spares, especially if they had nonstandard thread original or repro nipples. One of our best Female Shooters ignored that advice and darn near lost her chance at medaling with her original underhammer percussion rifle because of it.

On the second practice day at the World Championships, nothing was going on when I left long enough to go to the "necessary facilities." I had already laid out my large assortment of modern and original nipple wrenches that fit every nipple used by the Team and had previously informed the Team they could use them to change their nipples or I would happily do it for them. Upon my return from the necessary, that same Lady was frantically going through my nipple wrenches and was in a bit of a panic she couldn't find one to fit the nipple on her original underhammer rifle. You may have guessed it, her nipple "blew out" on that day and her groups turned into shotgun patterns.

I calmed her down (an important part of an Armorer's Job) but inwardly I was thinking, "Uh Oh, I might not have a nipple that fit the non standard threads on her original rifle." I checked the threads on her nipple once I got it out and was relieved it was 1/4 x 28 tpi, the most common modern size. Later on I learned from another Team Member who had done the work three years earlier, that he had re-threaded the barrel three years earlier for a modern nipple.

After I installed the new nipple and while I was checking the rifle to see if there was any other mechanical problems, I asked her when the last time was that she had changed the nipple? She thought for a bit and replied a year and a half ago, someone had checked her rifle and the nipple was good, so she hadn't replaced it. (I later found out that nipple had been in the rifle over four years and she had shot a LOT with it in that time.) Now I knew her well as a friend from NSSA shoots over the years. So I replied, "Nancy, you were there at the planning meeting when I brought up changing nipples for this competition. I'm really surprised you of all people didn't follow that advice." Though she was a bit embarrassed, she grinned and said, "Well, I knew you would be here and fix any gun problems I had, so I didn't do it." I told her she was hugely and doubly lucky that someone had earlier rethreaded her barrel and I brought spares, or else she would have blown the entire trip. She recovered enough to stick her tongue out at me and went back to practice.

From this and earlier competitions is why I always recommend using a new nipple at the start of each shooting season if one competes with the gun. For Hunters, I recommend changing nipples every three years if one doesn't shoot much in the off season with their gun.

Gus

I'm constantly thinking ahead for new load ideas and then testing ones that might show promise. I completely agree that even a small detail like nipple condition can change point of impact or open up a group.

The real purpose of this test was to determine the accuracy potential of coconut oil v lard in my guns that like lard. I shot a group with the PH prior to this one using only lard applied by hand to eliminate the beeswax part of the equation. After a pretty decent group, I cleaned to rifle to return it to the same clean, cold bore status as I did with lard. I then shot the coconut oil group and that's the result. Now through experimentation I've found that not all of my guns like lard based lube. I repeated this experiment with my Sharps and the Sharps liked lard better. So this isn't a "magic" solution, but my PH certainly shot well with it. My next experiment is to change to bullet from the Moose Hogdon to the Moose International for better wind drift resistance. The Intl weighs about 25gr more and I'm wondering if it is capable of similar performance but with resistance to wind drift.

 

[Longrangehunter]

Do you use a chronograph when testing? I like to look for flat spots with increased load charges for low ES/SD within a velocity range and nodes within a barrel length. Mixing and matching the weight of the bullet to the barrel length and using a faster or slower powders to produce the best results. Short barrel faster burn rate, etc. Even the primer can have an effect at lowering the ES/SD.

In the end the bullets POI does not lie....

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm not smart enough for any of this, I'm just happy when I can get 50 through the pipe without cleaning and there are holes on the 100 yard target

 

[user 49399]

Dave951,

Thanks for the good info! What was your shooting position for these shots? We’re you using sticks, sand bags, sled or elbows?

Banjoman

 

[dave951]

Dave951,

Thanks for the good info! What was your shooting position for these shots? We’re you using sticks, sand bags, sled or elbows?

Banjoman

Long winded here, but please read all of it.

Short answer, bags and elbows on a stable bench.

Testing methodology is another critical part in load development. Poor shooting technique will render your results suspect. In black powder arms, interior ballistics play a huge part in accuracy. Most folks today learned shooting from "a guy at the range" or from Uncle Sugar. Those techniques can work for modern arms. When shooting our stuff, you have to remember how the gun functions. Case in point, when shooting a "longrifle", using modern bench techniques will cause accuracy to suffer and your Point of Impact to differ between bench and offhand. With a muzzleloader, the best technique that will render repeatable results and not cause a huge shift in Point of Impact when switching from bench to offhand-

1 put your front bag as high as possible so you can sit up as erect as possible. You don't want to be "hunched" down onto the gun.

2 position the bag to the spot where your forward hand would be on the stock.

3 grip the forearm with your front hand just as you would for shooting offhand. rest the back of that hand on the bags. DO NOT put that hand on the heel of the stock for support like a modern arm

4 DON'T cant the gun! Make sure your sight picture/alignment are the same each time.

5 DON'T just gently squeeze the trigger. Squeezing slowly introduces tremors into the gun. DO make a smooth pull on the trigger. This takes practice. Having set triggers helps to mitigate this. The group I posted is with a P58 Parker Hale musket and no set triggers.

6 Rest your rear elbow on a bag to stabilize your position on the gun.

7 In testing, remember to only change ONE thing at a time.

So an illustration-
Ball dia is incorrect but the story behind this is warranted. This brand new Kibler was shooting a 6+in group at the 50yd by the owner. I had him load it exactly like he had for his shots to eliminate that possible variable. I used the exact technique I just outlined and the pic tells the tale. No other change except technique. I taught the technique to the shooter and now he can do it reliably and with repeatability and his first group with the gun after I taught him the technique was very nearly this good. His technique has since improved and his shooting is much better overall.

 

[dave951]

Do you use a chronograph when testing? I like to look for flat spots with increased load charges for low ES/SD within a velocity range and nodes within a barrel length. Mixing and matching the weight of the bullet to the barrel length and using a faster or slower powders to produce the best results. Short barrel faster burn rate, etc. Even the primer can have an effect at lowering the ES/SD.

In the end the bullets POI does not lie....

I don't own a chronograph but I'm planning on getting one and revisiting everything for data and confirmation.

 

[user 49399]

Thanks for taking the time to respond and explain. Some of this I knew, some I suspected and some I didn’t know.

 

[Longrangehunter]

Long winded here, but please read all of it.

Short answer, bags and elbows on a stable bench.

Testing methodology is another critical part in load development. Poor shooting technique will render your results suspect. In black powder arms, interior ballistics play a huge part in accuracy. Most folks today learned shooting from "a guy at the range" or from Uncle Sugar. Those techniques can work for modern arms. When shooting our stuff, you have to remember how the gun functions. Case in point, when shooting a "longrifle", using modern bench techniques will cause accuracy to suffer and your Point of Impact to differ between bench and offhand. With a muzzleloader, the best technique that will render repeatable results and not cause a huge shift in Point of Impact when switching from bench to offhand-

1 put your front bag as high as possible so you can sit up as erect as possible. You don't want to be "hunched" down onto the gun.

2 position the bag to the spot where your forward hand would be on the stock.

3 grip the forearm with your front hand just as you would for shooting offhand. rest the back of that hand on the bags. DO NOT put that hand on the heel of the stock for support like a modern arm

4 DON'T cant the gun! Make sure your sight picture/alignment are the same each time.

5 DON'T just gently squeeze the trigger. Squeezing slowly introduces tremors into the gun. DO make a smooth pull on the trigger. This takes practice. Having set triggers helps to mitigate this. The group I posted is with a P58 Parker Hale musket and no set triggers.

6 Rest your rear elbow on a bag to stabilize your position on the gun.

7 In testing, remember to only change ONE thing at a time.

So an illustration-
Ball dia is incorrect but the story behind this is warranted. This brand new Kibler was shooting a 6+in group at the 50yd by the owner. I had him load it exactly like he had for his shots to eliminate that possible variable. I used the exact technique I just outlined and the pic tells the tale. No other change except technique. I taught the technique to the shooter and now he can do it reliably and with repeatability and his first group with the gun after I taught him the technique was very nearly this good. His technique has since improved and his shooting is much better overall.
View attachment 181560

Do you know which brand of 3Fg Black Powder was used for this test?

 

[dave951]

Do you know which brand of 3Fg Black Powder was used for this test?

Swiss

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

There are 4 shots in one hole, 1/2 right of point of aim, but my gun hits a shade to the right. Our rules don't allow adjustable sights.

Simple ... bend the barrel ...

Have bent many in my life, latest just last week, an 1870 Italian Vetterli-Vitali black powder cartridge rifle firing the 10.4x7R cartridge, moving it 0.035"easily, to be on @ 50Y. Formula is 0.5"/1800 as X (Amount you need to more the barrel or front sight to the right)/Z (Length in inches between the rear sight blade and faceof the front sight. Cross multiply to find the distance you need to offset, or 0.5Z = 1800X. You will know your 'Z', so X = (0.5*Z)/1800. For others, note the1800 is for 50-yards, expressed in inches as (50Y * 3Feet per Yard * 12" per Foot) = 1800.

Comments_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

GREAT shooting and info!

Wind - With that heavy of a Minie, I'd try not chasing the wind, as I bet your circle or cone of accuracy is better than if you try to play the wind.

Load Development - Not that you left it out, as you just simply didn't include it, but here's what I do on my flintlocks. I prefer 1" dots ... if you can see them.

These 2 load development targets were shot years apart, one a fowler and one a rifle, but they both display graphic proof for how a barrel - actually ANY firearm barrel - will print different groups depending on the charge, which correlates to whether or not you are shooting from a node. Barrels whip or vibrate like a tuning fork, but in a sine wave pattern. Your arm, and the load, WILL be the most accurate if/when shot off either the top node - where the muzzle is at the apex of its travel - or at the bottom dwell point.

The other thing that shooting off a node does for you is that minor variations in powdah charges do not open up the groups at reasonable distances (so far I'd surmise that to be 75Y and under for BP 'roundball loads').

Fowler - 54"barrel, offhand to boot, 25-yards, where I eventually took this one up to 110-grains. This one liked 55 & 75 the best of this test group (2Fg).

Rifle - 42" light profile swamped barrel, benched, but look how the group changed just by a 5-grain increase! It will also shoot 1-hole groups @ 50-grains (3Fg). Those other red dots around the lowest one actually helped make sure I wasn't crowding the front sight 'up' into the lowest one. After more LD, she;l now print 1 ragged hole groups @ 50Y.

Hopefully this info added for load development helps others git out thar' and achieve the maximum inherrent accuracy that they can, or want. Cheers!

 

[dave951]

Simple ... bend the barrel ...

Have bent many in my life, latest just last week, an 1870 Italian Vetterli-Vitali black powder cartridge rifle firing the 10.4x7R cartridge, moving it 0.035"easily, to be on @ 50Y. Formula is 0.5"/1800 as X (Amount you need to more the barrel or front sight to the right)/Z (Length in inches between the rear sight blade and faceof the front sight. Cross multiply to find the distance you need to offset, or 0.5Z = 1800X. You will know your 'Z', so X = (0.5*Z)/1800. For others, note the1800 is for 50-yards, expressed in inches as (50Y * 3Feet per Yard * 12" per Foot) = 1800.

Comments_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

GREAT shooting and info!

Wind - With that heavy of a Minie, I'd try not chasing the wind, as I bet your circle or cone of accuracy is better than if you try to play the wind.

Load Development - Not that you left it out, as you just simply didn't include it, but here's what I do on my flintlocks. I prefer 1" dots ... if you can see them.

These 2 load development targets were shot years apart, one a fowler and one a rifle, but they both display graphic proof for how a barrel - actually ANY firearm barrel - will print different groups depending on the charge, which correlates to whether or not you are shooting from a node. Barrels whip or vibrate like a tuning fork, but in a sine wave pattern. Your arm, and the load, WILL be the most accurate if/when shot off either the top node - where the muzzle is at the apex of its travel - or at the bottom dwell point.

The other thing that shooting off a node does for you is that minor variations in powdah charges do not open up the groups at reasonable distances (so far I'd surmise that to be 75Y and under for BP 'roundball loads').

Fowler - 54"barrel, offhand to boot, 25-yards, where I eventually took this one up to 110-grains. This one liked 55 & 75 the best of this test group (2Fg).
View attachment 181633

Rifle - 42" light profile swamped barrel, benched, but look how the group changed just by a 5-grain increase! It will also shoot 1-hole groups @ 50-grains (3Fg). Those other red dots around the lowest one actually helped make sure I wasn't crowding the front sight 'up' into the lowest one. After more LD, she;l now print 1 ragged hole groups @ 50Y.
View attachment 181634

Hopefully this info added for load development helps others git out thar' and achieve the maximum inherrent accuracy that they can, or want. Cheers!

Bend the barrel?!?!?!? On this rifle not only NO but H3LL NO!

This is a military design musket with sights altered within the rules of competition.

First off, get a good group, then adjust the sights. In my case, they're as adjusted as they're going to get. 1/2in of at 50yd in our competition is something that is easily dealt with by the operator. The basic 50yd target in N-SSA is about 4in in diameter. To deal with this in our competition, I just shade left with the front post and presto, center punch.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Haha, ... I'd still bend it, if mine ... hehe! But thenagain I'm using that Vetterli BP rifle for offhand shooting against National Match '03 Springfields, M1s and M1As, but am still averaging 2nd place every week .

 

[Longrangehunter]

I went out today to chronograph some powder charges across my O/R 35P since our muzzleloading season for Elk ended yesterday. The printer wouldn't work due to the cold temps. So I had to write down the velocity vs just take a picture of the data. Which would have showed the Avg. High, Low, ES and SD..... the useful stuff.

This is just a quick overview of what I had already done prior to hunting, or when changing components, i.e. Lots of powder, primers, bullet types, but I thought it would be useful information.

So long range shooting requires that a projectile leave the muzzle as close to the same velocity as possible.... These heavy slowish moving bullets need the same treatment if you wish to avoid tracking wounded game..... Long ago I went down this road to make clean kills with lethal precision, and many head shots behind the ear, or between the eyes.

.50 cal 30" bbl. 1:62" twist .490" RB .018" tickling w/Mink oil @ 15' from the muzzle. RWS No. 55 Percussion caps, NOS.
I cleaned after each shot w/one wet patch and two to dry the bore. Rifle was left out side in 32-34 degree weather. Powder charges were all weighed as I let the bbl cool. New 2022 lots of powder.

Schuetzen powder:

62.5 2Fg 1210 fps @ 15'
62.5 3Fg 1464 fps
72.5 3Fg 1568 fps
82.5 3Fg 1576 fps
77.5 3Fg 1578 fps

Note: This is what you want to see, a wide node between 72.5-82.5 with no velocity changes. This means I could use volume with my eye and still be within the same velocity level.... I don't do that, but using a volume measurer is completely fine with a load like that.

It's not fast by any means, that said Schuetzen is not known for high energy levels...... I suppose someone could just keep adding more of a powder charge to see where they could take this, but that's not my mission here. I just wanted to show how as you increase a powder charge look for the velocity to flatten off.... The wider the better, but not necessary if you weigh each charge.

97.5 2Fg 1588 fps
97.5 2Fg 1559 fps

As you can see above the Schuetzen 2Fg still produced a similar velocity, but at a higher charge weight. I did not do a full node test, as I already have ran these before and wasn't wanting to post a final weight charge as it's very high.

Swiss 1 1/2 Fg:
72.5 1706
72.5 ----- Too dark for a reading.

As you can see if you're after speed use a powder that produces high energy levels for a given charge vs attempting to just keep adding powder.

You'll want something the produces the lowest ES/SD if you want to get rid of vertical stringing.

Note: The three holes with Brown m/m are from previous days when I done hunting and fired my gun. These were all done Off Hand and not for group @ 66 yards.

 

[necchi]

but if you're serious about accuracy, you will test every part of your load, your methodology, and strive to get the best results possible.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The moral of this journey is that every component you use affects your accuracy. Get serious about it,

Yeah, the "System" works. And it's easier to apply once you learn it.
Thank you for sharing the demonstration and wisdom.
And Thank You Dutch,,

 

[Stantheman86]

I shot this target at 50 with my elbows resting on a table, standing.

60gr of 1.5f OE and .575 Minies cast by a friendly old guy , lubed with SPG and my caps were an Altoid tin with a mix of Rio and CCI Reenactor caps

Just as a baseline for a target shot with really no attention paid to anything

 

[Trot]

Ok for those who don't frequent this forum, I'm a competition shooter with Civil War arms in the North South Skirmish Association. As such, it's in my best interest to have the most accurate load I can come up with for shooting in our competitions. I believe that a number of muzzleloading enthusiasts will talk about Schultz' book as if it was something new, but if you're serious about accuracy, you will test every part of your load, your methodology, and strive to get the best results possible. For the purpose of this thread, I'd like to illustrate what can happen when changing out ONE component in a proven load.

First off, a picture of my standard goto load for musket Skirmishing. I shoot a Birmingham P58 Parker Hale that is glass bedded with a tuned lock. Trigger pull is 3.75lb, just heavy enough to be legal for our rules. I have long ago abandoned any use of cheap components as they aren't capable of giving these types of results. This load is the RCBS Hogdon, 42gr 3f Old E, RWS caps, beeswax/lard lube, 50yd, 5 shots.

View attachment 171556


For reasons outside this discussion, I'm using the Moose version of the Hogdon and previously determined it will shoot well within acceptable parameters. I've shot similar groups with this bullet but after some deep diving on other forums, I decided to run a test with this proven Skirmish load to determine if it could be either duplicated or improved. The only component I changed was lube. Take a look at the result. Range condition was overcast, 55F, dead calm. Load- Moose Hogdon, 42g 3f Swiss, RWS caps, coconut oil lube. First shot went high, not an unusual thing with muzzleloaders so the next 4 would be the test. Take a look at the target-

View attachment 171558

Yes, there were witnesses. There are 4 shots in one hole, 1/2 right of point of aim, but my gun hits a shade to the right. Our rules don't allow adjustable sights. Mine are standard post and notch. I don't know if I could ever replicate this, but I did shoot a group at 100yd a bit later as a test. Again, the load was the same, but conditions were now sunny, 55F, winds variable downrange and I was attempting to "dope" and compensate for them. I've come to the conclusion that might be akin to voodoo or the province of Santaria priests. So the group-

View attachment 171560

Again, first shot high, clean cold bore. Next 4 have a vertical dispersion of about 1in. Horizontal was about 5in and that's part me attempting to "dope" the wind and the fact that the Hogdon isn't known for dealing with wind too well. I feel if conditions were like when I shot that first group, this one would be well under 2in discounting that first shot. And again, a first shot flyer isn't unheard of in muzzleloading or in the realm of competition shooting.

The moral of this journey is that every component you use affects your accuracy. Get serious about it, use quality components, be willing to experiment outside the box, and most important- be methodical and change only one thing at a time and test. Results will prove if you've found the unicorn or not. I'll revisit this load next week with another bullet design I've been working with a bit.

Ok for those who don't frequent this forum, I'm a competition shooter with Civil War arms in the North South Skirmish Association. As such, it's in my best interest to have the most accurate load I can come up with for shooting in our competitions. I believe that a number of muzzleloading enthusiasts will talk about Schultz' book as if it was something new, but if you're serious about accuracy, you will test every part of your load, your methodology, and strive to get the best results possible. For the purpose of this thread, I'd like to illustrate what can happen when changing out ONE component in a proven load.

First off, a picture of my standard goto load for musket Skirmishing. I shoot a Birmingham P58 Parker Hale that is glass bedded with a tuned lock. Trigger pull is 3.75lb, just heavy enough to be legal for our rules. I have long ago abandoned any use of cheap components as they aren't capable of giving these types of results. This load is the RCBS Hogdon, 42gr 3f Old E, RWS caps, beeswax/lard lube, 50yd, 5 shots.

View attachment 171556


For reasons outside this discussion, I'm using the Moose version of the Hogdon and previously determined it will shoot well within acceptable parameters. I've shot similar groups with this bullet but after some deep diving on other forums, I decided to run a test with this proven Skirmish load to determine if it could be either duplicated or improved. The only component I changed was lube. Take a look at the result. Range condition was overcast, 55F, dead calm. Load- Moose Hogdon, 42g 3f Swiss, RWS caps, coconut oil lube. First shot went high, not an unusual thing with muzzleloaders so the next 4 would be the test. Take a look at the target-

View attachment 171558

Yes, there were witnesses. There are 4 shots in one hole, 1/2 right of point of aim, but my gun hits a shade to the right. Our rules don't allow adjustable sights. Mine are standard post and notch. I don't know if I could ever replicate this, but I did shoot a group at 100yd a bit later as a test. Again, the load was the same, but conditions were now sunny, 55F, winds variable downrange and I was attempting to "dope" and compensate for them. I've come to the conclusion that might be akin to voodoo or the province of Santaria priests. So the group-

View attachment 171560

Again, first shot high, clean cold bore. Next 4 have a vertical dispersion of about 1in. Horizontal was about 5in and that's part me attempting to "dope" the wind and the fact that the Hogdon isn't known for dealing with wind too well. I feel if conditions were like when I shot that first group, this one would be well under 2in discounting that first shot. And again, a first shot flyer isn't unheard of in muzzleloading or in the realm of competition shooting.

The moral of this journey is that every component you use affects your accuracy. Get serious about it, use quality components, be willing to experiment outside the box, and most important- be methodical and change only one thing at a time and test. Results will prove if you've found the unicorn or not. I'll revisit this load next week with another bullet design I've been working with a bit.

Excellent information here Dave, thanks for sharing this. Could you elaborate on the coconut oil lube? Did you mix with bee's wax? I've got a couple of guns that are long overdue for a proper load work up, a Zoli Zouave and an original M1863, beat to heck but with an excellent bore.