Lead bullet bans

[mojohand]

I live in California (Kalifornistan) and the good law makers have seen fit to save us all from lead bullets for hunting. Several other states have also. To my knowledge there is no exemptions for muzzleloaders. Now I know there are copper bullets with sabots, but my question is do you all think this is the beginning of the end for traditional (flintlock/cap lock ) hunting in this country? The copper sabot bullets are intended for the modern inlines mostly, though many trad guns have fast twist rates. But most others have slower twists for round or maybe mini-type balls. I don't think they will. Come up with copper balls ( expensive if they did). I kinda think most folks will just shoot at the range and use other weapons for hunting now. Many may stop hunting all together, which is likely the ultimate game of the lawmakers anyway. Just disheartened.

 

[Idaho Ron]

By getting your size correct you can paper patch "any" bullet to work in a ML. Ron

 

[Stumpkiller]

So how many letters have you written? E-mailed your congressman? Senator? Governor? Petitions circulated? Requested of local councilmembers to make resolutions to appeal for a review by the state (any citizen can initiate a request for resolution or litigation from a local council and there should be "two minutes for comment" sessions at council meetings). Carries no weight but at least it gets the word out - and possibly media attention.

Bunch of folks with muzzleloaders started this government. Should be able to get one law ammended.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

The lead ban for hunting is especially tough on those of us who want to hunt traditionally. It's possible though. Non-toxic r/balls are available and Idaho Ron mentioned paper patching conical bullets. I already use Hevi-Shot in my scattergun for waterfowling.

While all of our lobbying didn't stop the governor from signing the bill we have to stay after them. Even though less than 10% of Californians are hunters, we spend a lot of money doing it. Politicians understand money.

Check into COHA. California Outdoor Heritage Alliance. GW

 

[Eljay]

There was a fellow who posted some initial test results using brass balls that looked promising. Perhaps somebody who remembers the details can dig up a link for you.

 

[mojohand]

Stump killer, I appreciate the sentiment. You live in NY, so you can sympathize more than other states ( you've got some wacky laws there). But we are COMPLETELy out numbered in Cali. This state is gone! Off the rails, bat manure crazy. This is not the state of my parents or grandparents. Write letters? Done it. Speak at council meetings? Been there. Over the years it's just drip, drip, drip our rights down the drain. There is no going back, I fear. But I'll keep trying as long as I live here, but honestly, I'm just putting in my time until I can get out of here like so many others have done.

 

[mojohand]

Last I checked, Gray whiskers, COHA is no longer

 

[Stumpkiller]

Yeah. We're probably #3 on the wacky gun laws train to Crazytown. (Behind California and Massachusetts - but we can now hunt on Sundays!)

Sounds like you have been making the right efforts. Sadly organizations like the NMLRA should be parachuting advocates into CA . . . but they don't do that.

Funny how when it was tetraethyl lead we made everyone stop using it because it was killing the world . . . 50 years after that was a known danger and dozens of refinery workers died horrible deaths or lost their minds. And even then (an now) 100 Octane Av Gas still uses it . . . even in California. Exceptions can be made if you have a big enough lobby or buy the right politician.

 

[GreyWhiskers]

Wow! :shocked2: You're right. They folded in May. That's a shame. They were one of the best vehicles for lobbying. GW

 

[roundball]

I live in California...
I kinda think most folks will just shoot at the range and use other weapons for hunting now. Many may stop hunting all together, which is likely the ultimate game of the lawmakers anyway. Just disheartened.

Well, there actually are alternatives for hunting...the non-toxc "ITX" ball has been out for a few years now...(never personally tried it)...cost over a dollar apiece but doable just for sight in and the occasional shot out hunting;
Just for the interest in hands on experience, I researched some other alternatives and found a solid brass ball manufactured to precise dimensions that's outstanding in a .58cal... cost 54 cents apiece...range tested it, then took a deer with it last fall as a live field test..this was the summary:
-------------------------------
10/31/12

HISTORY
Testing this summer as a possible lead ball alternative, I found solid brass .5625" x 201grn balls to be extremely accurate.
The once fired (1X) balls in the photo were recovered after passing through 21” of rubber mulch in a cardboard trap box I made and don’t have a mark on them, no changes in dimensions, patches are perfect...so I decided to use the 1X balls for field testing on deer.

LOAD DETAILS
38" x .58cal Rice barrel / Early Virginia
Goex 4F prime
100grns Goex 2F main
.62cal Duro-Felt OP wad, lubed with NL1000
.028" Cotton Duck patch, lubed with NL1000
.5625" Solid Brass Ball from 'Online Metals'
Weight = 201 grains

PERFORMANCE DETAILS
Hunting this afternoon, a Spike and a Doe stepped out of an overgrown clear-cut area about 55-60yds in front of my ladder...came across the tractor path and into the oak ridge.
I leveled the sights on her heart / chest and just as I was starting to touch the trigger she stopped and put her head down for a mushroom or acorn at about 50yds.
I tweaked the sights up to the neck vertebrae / shoulder blade junction and touched it off...she dropped like a sack of potatoes and never moved.
At the straight on angle the ball would have to traverse the length of her body to exit and I saw no exit.

FILE PHOTOS

 

[mojohand]

Wow. I had not heard of those, roundball. Maybe there is hope for the future. Thanks

 

[Rifleman1776]

do you all think this is the beginning of the end for traditional (flintlock/cap lock ) hunting in this country?

This is more of a political issue than anything IMHO. Oh, well.
My answer is it could be if folks like us do not do our part with regards to supporting candidates who support our views. And, we need to be more pro-active in promoting our views as well. In many things the "anti" folks are organized and much more vocal with their efforts to make things the way they want them. Those of us with traditional views seem to just sit back and complain after the fact. Yes, we could lose everything meaningful to us if we allow the rabid "anti" gang to get away with stealing our freedoms.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Those brass balls are not an answer to the problem. Using them is an admition of defeat.

 

[Walks with fire]

If my math is right a .490 ball would weigh in at around 128 grains. Because it's lighter it could be pushed a good bit faster with the same charge level. I don't think it would need to expand any and would still have enough penetration. It would probably shoot pretty flat too. A .54 ball should weigh about 160 grains and that would still be some pretty good weight for deer. I would think it would work pretty well really.

I gotta wonder what a pure copper .490 would weigh?

 

[jamesthomas]

The lead ban In Cali. does not take effect until 2018. So you have time. I've heard of other states banning lead but its only for waterfowl hunting. So far I have not seen a list of any other states banning lead bullets for large or small game hunting. I have 120lbs. of lead in ingots and around 500 to 600 rbs. already cast up. The lead smelter that is closing will probably move to Mexico like a copper smelter has done. I also don't think the ban in Cali. will spread to the other states, We are more rational than the nut cases in California.

 

[cynthialee]

Lead is NOT the only "traditional" roundball!

The Spanish were using iron roundballs when lead wasn't available. Stories of marbles and pebbles being used in emergency situations are in old accounts.
If it is roundish and solid enough to make the journey from breach to target and make a proper wound channel folks would use it.

Roundballs brass bullets may be different than what we are used to, but they work. And being a round metal ball shot through a muzzleloader ... sounds traditional enough to me. But hey maybe casting iron roundballs is more to your taste than buying premade brass ones.....

 

[roundball]

Those brass balls are not an answer to the problem. Using them is an admition of defeat.

You just keep leaving yourself open with these statements of yours, LOL...and I'm sorry but you're simply wrong.

You obviously don't understand the magnitude of the political issues and the size of the mountain to be climbed and overcome, and if it ever could be overcome it would take decades.
As an example, Non-Toxic shot has been mandated for a quarter of a century now and that mountain to over turn it still hasn't been conquered...and isn't going to be...so "hows that been working for you" as the saying goes?

Apparently you'd just have all affected hunters give up hunting rather than try to continue using available alternatives if & while any attempts are being made to overturn laws that are now on the books....cut off our noses for a few decades and not use the approved alternatives like steel, Bismuth, ITX, Tungsten, Ecotungsten/Niceshot, etc, etc

And like Stumpkiller already posted, what have YOU done to get the laws overturned?
And what success have you had?

:thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Wow. I had not heard of those, roundball. Maybe there is hope for the future. Thanks

Well, at least there are interim alternatives for places like the lead ban zones in California if and while the laws are attempted to be changed.

Reading California's laws on this, any projectile has to be on a pre-approved list at the Wildlife Department...(its on the website)...and there's an application process that a vendor has to complete and submit for review & approval.

You can check it and see if ITX has been approved yet...could also start an effort to get solid brass balls approved, etc...at least it would seem they would be easier steps to accomplish in the near term rather than waiting your lifetime to try and get the political machinery on your side in some states like California.

 

[Rev_William]

Well after seeing how well ramrods fly may mixing traditional archery and muzzleloading would be a good fit

 

[Claude Mathis]

do you all think this is the beginning of the end for traditional (flintlock/cap lock ) hunting in this country?

This is more of a political issue than anything IMHO.

That's correct. This forum is for the discussion of Shooting Accessories - how to use them, where to get them, composition, etc.

If you want to discuss the political aspects of a lead ban, we have a Politics forum for that.