• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades
  • Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Lawsuits

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Bountyhunter

50 Cal.
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
1,249
Reaction score
2
Claude,

If this news article violates the rules, then delete it, but I think that it should be of importance to all traditional muzzleloaders.

There is a group that bills itself as the North American Muzzleloading Hunting Association which has filed suit against 15 states demanding that they be allowed to use magnified optics on their rifles to gain advantage for longer shots.

If it is OK with you, I will post the link to the article.

Bill
 
that's why PA has a tradtional season in dec-jan fer flintlock only and the new fangled stuff in oct fer doe only....but we can use the tradtional stuff in oct and regular season too............bob
 
Well, I dont want to rupture Claude and his forum rules any, but I thought that this needed airin amongst those who care. These people, whom I have never heard of, have some serious $$ to file a series of lawsuits like this. Further, they are filing them as civil rights lawsuits and filing against the Department of the Interior if I read it right.

Always somebody tryin to mess with others comforts. So, I'm waitin to hear from Claude before postin anything further on this. It seems to me that it is going to affect the hunting regulations seriously.

Bill
 
Thanks, Claude.
[url] http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1677748/posts?page=13[/url]

This is the full article with the link back to THE OUTDOOR WIRE where it was first published.

Most states begin hunting deer along in September and then go until the end of the year. Bowhunters get about two months of that time and the rifle hunters get a week of muzzleloader and a week of regular rifle. I believe that there is enough time available to divide up so that there is a traditional muzzleloader the first season, some bowhunting, some nontraditional ML, more bowhunting, and then the regular seasons. I just dont want the city boys (clue) in my pasture shooting past me with scopes and smokeless powder when I am walking the draws with my Hawken.

Read it and form yer own opinions. I think it is diluting our sport. If'n you belong to other forums, I say, spread the good news.
Bill
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If they want to use a scope on a ML they can hunt regular rifle season.I thought ML season was for folks that wanted to hunt old school.Was part of the claim that some were getting older and needed a scope to see better?Why dont they just get closer.If ya cant see a deer at 30-40 yards with eye glasses thats almost legaly blind isnt it?I think they are losing touch with their hunting skills and a scope is an easier way to get the big one.
 
FYI...... This one has me pulling my hair out.

------------------------------------------

The North American Muzzleloading Hunting Association has filed a civil
rights complaint alleging discrimination against the fish and game
departments of fifteen states that do not permit the use of "sight
correcting magnification" (riflescopes) during their special
muzzleloader hunting seasons.

According to the complaint, big game hunters in the United States are
becoming older as a group. With that maturation, NAMHA holds, there is a
natural deterioration of vision. Due to that accepted fact, it should be
only reasonable that older hunters be provided the equipment to see more
clearly.

In fifteen jurisdictions across the United States, however,
muzzleloading hunters are prohibited from using optical sights, despite
the fact that center-fire rifles, handguns and slug-loaded shotguns
permit optical sights. This, NAMHA holds, is discrimination against
muzzleloading hunters - discrimination that is due to age and sight
deterioration- items covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act
(ADA).

In a July 16 letter of complaint to Secretary of the Interior Dirk
Kempthorne NAMHA founder Toby Bridges pointed out, "If modern firearms
hunters in these states are given the right to hunt with a magnifying
telescopic rifle sight (scope), then the muzzleloading hunter has the
right to use the same sighting aid during a season established for
muzzle-loaded guns. For these states to deny that right is a clear cut
case of discrimination - due to age, due to sight disability and due to
segregation."

The July 27th reply from the Department of the Interior says: "We have
accepted your complaint for investigation under the authority of section
504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended, and Title II of the
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Section 504 prohibits
discrimination on the basis of disability in programs or activities
receiving Federal financial assistance. Title II of the ADA prohibits
discrimination on the basis of disability in programs and activities
conducted by public entities whether or not they receive Federal
financial assistance. Each of the 15 Wildlife Agencies is subject to the
nondiscrimination requirements of both of these Federal laws. Under
separate cover, we have asked the FWS (Fish & Wildlife Service) to
investigate your complaint."

Since filing the complaint, the NAMHA says it has been contacted by
several of the named departments. Their reasoning for the no-scope
regulations are characterized by NAMHA as "the same old rhetoric and
reasoning that has been shot down and proven wrong in other states, "
from a potential over-harvest of game to the temptation to take longer
shots. In response, the Association says that precise shot placement is
key to a quick, clean and humane harvest, not a ban on optics.

Further, the NAMHA says game departments "haven't a clue" as to how much
game is lost to poor shot placement due to their open sights only
requirements.

The game agencies listed in the complaint are the Alaska Department of
Fish and Game; California Department of Fish and Game; Colorado Division
of Wildlife; Georgia Department of Natural Resources; Idaho Department
of Fish and Game; Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks; Minnesota
Department of Natural Resources; Nebraska Game and Parks Commission;
Nevada Department of Wildlife; North Dakota Department of Game and Fish;
Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife; South Dakota Department of Game,
Fish and Parks; Utah Division of Wildlife Resources; Washington
Department of Fish and Wildlife; and the Wisconsin Department of Natural
Resources.
 
You had my attention until I saw the name of the poster boy for the modern ML idustry...then all credibility went right out of the article...he's just trying to get clearance for the scoped inlines to be used.

He is on record putting down the accuracy and game getting capability of traditional muzzleloaders and projectiles, compared to his opposite stance years ago when he was on the advertising payrolls for traditional MLs back then (the only MLs back then)

:shake: :shake: :shake:
 
Roundball:
Couldn't agree more - in my opinion this is just another example of a wider agenda to co-opt market share by the in-line manufacturers. Don't dismiss this one too soon, these states may not be able to defend themselves against this charge. If this goes the wrong way, sidelock open sight only hunting seasons are gone in all their forms. If this does come to pass, it will have a significant impact on our sport.
 
I am a firm believer that this lawsuit has nothing to do with "old guys who can't see." This is another example of business interests trying to milk another buck out of the special muzzleloader-only season. I wrote to The Kansas Wildlife and Parks Board asking them to reconsider the use of scopes because I believed that shot placement would be more exact several years back. Since then I have totally changed my opinion on the matter. I enjoy the early season using a primitive gun with primitive sights. In the middle of September you hardly ever see a Whitetail in my hunting area beyond 150 yards and even at 58 I can see well enough to shoot that far. Hunters are allowed to use scopes and double barrel rifles during the regular firearms season so how is anyone being deprived of their rights? I doubt very seriously that this lawsuit goes very far... but then again... in this wonderful country you can sue anybody for anything.
 
Plains,

I was on the river close to Cimmaron a while back and I saw an alpha buck, 6x6 that would have easily gone B&C 190. Worst problem with that was if I would have had a gun in my hands, I wouldnt have been able to hit him for shakin so bad. He was all of 15 yards when he broke cover.

They got this same topic goin on the General ML forum too.

Bill
 
Plains99 said:
I am a firm believer that this lawsuit has nothing to do with "old guys who can't see." This is another example of business interests trying to milk another buck out of the special muzzleloader-only season.
Agreed. I don't like Shotgun Slug hunting, so I got an inline accessory barrel for my (red-dot-sighted) mossberg 500 - for use during gun season, never intended it to be used for ML season, that's what the Flint is for...

I really don't see what's so hard about doing that.

IMO we should make a point of not calling inlines "inlines" or "muzzleloaders" at all, but rather "Caseless Ammunition Rifles". I know it takes up more words and is harder to say, but it makes the point Semantically as well as contextually.
 
Great minds think a like.... :thumbsup:

Claude,
Work the voodoo and make this one disappear. (poof)

SP
 
Don't support gun banners or hunter restrictions.
These laws just seperate and divde us.
In line guys are not evil. They are just hunters looking for an edge. inline weapons are there because hunters are convinced they are better then traditional caplocks and flintlocks.
If we want a flintlock/ primitive season then lets lobby our potical leaders and use the system. JMHO
 
oldarmy said:
"...If we want a flintlock/ primitive season then lets lobby our potical leaders and use the system..."
Hasn't this already been done once by traditional muzzleloading enthusiasts? A few decades ago? When muzzleloaders were traditional?
 
Old IronsightsIMO we should make a point of not calling inlines "inlines" or "muzzleloaders" at all said:
Sir,
While I agree with you as far as definitions go I think that may be a mistake as the only caseless ammunition firearms most non shooters are familiar with are modern military rifles like the Heckler and Koch G11.
Darn, now look at that, I made my first post and it is already pushing the limit on the politics rule! :redface: Time to go post about wall guns! :v
 
In Oregon, there is nothing to stop you from using an inline frontloader, sabots, and scopes, as long as you put in for a regular hunt. It's pretty clear in the regs that the Muzzleloader only seasons are "primitive" hunts.
Scott
 
No, dont kill this'un. Perhaps just merge the two so that all the replies show up on one.

Bill
 
Back
Top