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Lab Report on blown India musket

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Don:

Thank you for sharing that. I was particularly interested in the Expert's description of the gray " Crud" ( My word, not his) he found not only at the point of rupture, but continuing one down in front of the point of rupture, AND his speculation that the obstruction might be the result of NOT CLEANING the rifle often enough.

Now, knowing some local guys who are re-enactors, and the fact they have NEVER fired a live round through their guns, and their cleaning habits concerning the guns are-- well, er--- less than a shining examples for young shooters, the expert might just be on to something.

I still don't believe that a 100 grain charge caused this rupture. And, I don't expect the shooter to fess up to NOT HAVE cleaned the barrel regularly, on that date, or before. All of us tend to want to blame something, or someone else when we screw up!

Thanks again. :hatsoff: ( BTW, when the letter from the Company mentioned the Gray material found, I began thinking it would only take some- one pushing a clump of mud or dirt down that barrel to cause this rupture, too, and that might explain the " gray " color seen.)

Paul

Oh, for what its worth, while the Expert mentions " 1100" series steels, Black powder barrels are normally made with 11L14 steel, a very soft steel, to be specific, which is one of the 1100 series steels.
 
The conclusion on page 4 is very interesting. It makes me wonder how much firing would have to be done to have these results.
 
Well, the conclusion I got from reading that is that the materials were not defective and that a possible cause of the rupture is a bore obstruction caused by not cleaning the weapon.
 
Don,
Thanks for your post. Best free advertisement these companies can get :rotf: . Quit a testimonial to their product, at least barrel quality.
 
Paul,

I certainly don't claim to an expert, barely a novice, but is this scenario possible. As I understand it, the governing body during this event does not allow anything to go down the barrel except powder. Ramrods are not allowed and therefore cartridge paper can not be rammed. Could there be a buildup of powder residue in the barrel that could cause an obstruction large enough to cause the barrel to split? I know that when firing blanks in my musket the residue builds up very quickly. We normally use ramrods and ram the paper down. I think this may clean some of the residue from the inside of the barrel. As I say, this is pure speculation on my part.

Don R
 
Whoops, I guess the lab tech said about the same thing I just did. Should have gone back to reread the report before posting.

Don R
 
I've known reenactors who used muskets for 6 or 7 years without any cleaning. Their rammers would only go about 1/2 way down the barrel.
 
Don, I think its not only possible, but probable, particularly if the shooter used an oil to lube the barrel for storage, and did not use alcohol to clean out the barrel by dissolving the oils and flushing them out, before shooting. Oil and powder residue tends to build up quickly, and really cakes on! :cursing: :shocked2:

My suggestion to re-enactor companies is that they have their sergeants use a ramrod- one of those military ones with the wide flat head on it-- to run down the barrel between " shows" to see if there is a serious build up of crud in the barrel, of his soldiers, between relays, or " Battles". If so, he needs to have the shooter used that rod to scrape the crud out, up end the barrel and dump it on the ground before firing in the next relay.As long as only a sergeant, or officer keeps the ramrod, there should be no safety problems on the field. If the head of the ramrod cannot pass easily down a barrel, the gun needs to be cleaned before more blank charges are fired.

This would be my suggestion in my capacity as a club's lawyer, also. I have been to plenty of re-enactments where paper cartridges were used with the paper being rammed down on the powder charge before the blank charge is fired. No safety problems there. Guns were fired at an upward 45 degree angle, rather than parallel to the ground. or " shoulder level".

( My job as the club's lawyer is to protect both the club, and each member from any incident where one or both of them might be held liable for someone's injury. This role makes me a bit of a nag when it comes to safety issues, but it has also made me very conscious of various ways to enjoy our sport safely.Preventing an injury and lawsuit in the first instance, is always better than winning a lawsuit in court.)

I also have personal experience shooting blank charges along parade routes, and I know how fast and thick crud builds up if you don't clean the oil out of a barrel before beginning to shoot blanks. We found that if we were allowed to use paper, the paper came out as " Confetti" falling harmlessly to the street around us. However, we went to the NO Ramrod Rule, also, and just fire larger powder charges. The crud really builds up in rifles a lot faster than in smoothies, BTW.
 
Paul,

I know what you mean about rifle fouling. I was at Manskers Station a while back and fired a number of blanks from my rifle. This is something that I have only done that one time and do not plan on doing again. We were only allowed to dump in powder and the crud built up very quickly. My musket builds up but is much easier to clean and what I normally use with blanks.

Don R
 
Mark,

All I can say about people like that is that they are stupid, lazy or both. My guns are cleaned after each use regardless of the number of rounds that have been fired.

Don R
 
Thank you for posting the report!!!!!!
:applause: :thumbsup:

There has been so much wild speculation on this subject. Most agreed it was an obstruction or serious flaw. Now we know which.

These guns still look like the inletting was done with a blunt screwdriver, but at least those who shoot them should feel safer.

re: cleaning, yeah, the ramrod bounces on the breech, or the person gets pulled out of the firing line. NO exceptions. :nono: :shake: :youcrazy: :nono:
 
This is just a general reply, not to anyone in particular. But it amazes me a person would be involved in this hobby and NEVER? actually shoot a weapon with real loads? That is truly a way to get careless and sloppy, w/o live fire experience these folks DO NOT comprehend real world safety as the guns are merely "props" to them, not weapons.
 
Pichou said:
....... re: cleaning, yeah, the ramrod bounces on the breech, or the person gets pulled out of the firing line. NO exceptions. :nono: :shake: :youcrazy: :nono:

Absolutely, if the bore is not squeaky clean, at least at the beginning of the event, then the shooter does NOT go on the field - no exceptions! And on multi day events, it should be cleaned at the end of the day after firing. Reenactors need to remember that they are using a device that can kill or maim at both ends and treat it accordingly - with respect. The gun appeared to be externally clean, why wasn't the bore?

Now, being one of those that has been stating a concern about the safety of these "Made in India" specials, let me say that I am glad to hear that at least this one has been shown to have been safe as made and that it appears to have been the reenactor who was at fault. This is not unusual, too many reenactors know nothing about firearms and they look for price as their guideline when purchasing this important piece of gear. It is a part of their impression and nothing else. They will spend money having their wool "uniforms" dry cleaned (what a waste!) but will use a gun for years and NEVER clean the bore. Paul has offered the thought that maybe the fellow used petroleum oil and this may have been the cause of the explosion since petroleum oils gum up the works when mixed with BP fouling. I very seriously doubt this. The guy had probably never even attempted to clean the bore. "The residue in this barrel was gray and rather hard" is the quote. Dr. Bruchey seems to think this is not normal black powder fouling and in a way he is right, however this is the sign of a poorly maintained BP firearm that has been left alone and allowed to cake up - the fouling will turn gray when moisture dries out of the fouling and it will get hard as a rock. As it builds up over time it can get quite thick and the bore decreases in diameter until the rod will not go down the bore. At this point, nothing but a prolonged soaking in water and scraping using a bore scraper will remove it. It would be interesting to know how thick the fouling was at the point where the rupture occurred - in other words, what was the effective bore diameter? Also, could it be possible that a chunk of fouling near the muzzle broke loose and acted as a bore obstruction? And how many misfires did the guy have before the rupture, possibly leading to an over-size charge? We'll never know, but at least one seller will not be unnecessarily hauled into court.

One other thing, and not to pick on Paul, his was a well reasoned post and I mean no offense, but the steel often used in custom barrels is not 11L14 but 12L14. Others with more knowledge on the subject will have to talk on that.

DonR, thanks for posting the link, this makes a lot more sense now - an acknowledged expert making examinations and doing tests and giving his considered, unbiased opinion. I do wish that he had stated his opinion of the breeching of the gun though, I still have concerns about that but if he had seen a problem maybe he would have said something was amiss even though it was not in his purview.
 
Then did no smoke come out of the end? How could the 'ones in charge' not notice that??
Anyone had a musket in that shape in MY regiment wouldn't take the filed, and would be put to cleaning ALL the companys muskets until they 'got it right'.
Jeez! :youcrazy:
 
Tman said:
This is just a general reply, not to anyone in particular. But it amazes me a person would be involved in this hobby and NEVER? actually shoot a weapon with real loads? That is truly a way to get careless and sloppy, w/o live fire experience these folks DO NOT comprehend real world safety as the guns are merely "props" to them, not weapons.



Tman, I have been a reenactor for over 20 years and know many reenactors (not a majority, thank goodness) that have never "live" fired a gun in their lives, they know nothing about firearms and their efforts can be humorous. They do not see anything dangerous about not maintaining their weapons. Outside of the drill they use when in ranks, they have no clue how to use a gun of any kind.
 
Thank you for posting this, I hope those of us from this Forum have the balls to apologize to Pete from Middlesex Village Traders for the disparaging remarks made :cursing: BEFORE THE FACTS WERE OUT. Knee-jerk reactions, pfft!

Sorry for shouting, but Pete is a great guy and doesn't deserve the bad mouthing.

BTW, since I never have even seen smokeless powder, could the 'grey' stuff perhaps be that, or something that wasn't 'Black' Powder? I suppose if enough oil or lube was down the barrel, it may dilute the powder making it look grey?
 
My information on steel used in making barrels comes from a long time barrel maker, Phil Quaglino. He is still making a few barrels, but more often buying barrel stock from friends to make up new guns!
 
Pichou said:
These guns still look like the inletting was done with a blunt screwdriver.....

All I'm gonna say here is :bull: I don't know what guns you are or have looked at (if any), but my two muskets inletting is near perfect. I give up!!:doh:
 

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