Kibler side effect?

[mikesto44]

sturmkatze that pretty much sums up why a lot of us scratch build.

 

[Treetop]

Maybe people just want what they want. And they don’t want the same thing as everybody else. Jim Kibler makes really nice stuff. Excellent quality good build. But sometimes it’s not what you want. Of course that upsets people who expect you to just take what you’re given. .

Amen, not everything is what everyone wants,,, good thing we have a choice to shop the market based on our personal niches.

 

[Mike in FL]

I'm licking my chops waiting for the day Jim announces a PISTOL! I think I read he's working on a Hawkin, too. But researching to find out just which type of Hawken to make. His skill in using modern CNC science to make high-quality "old fashioned" goods is amazing. But you'll never see a TV segment on him as an American entrepreneur, because he makes "GUNS"!! The mainstream press will only cover "correct" craftsmen. Jim is a modern-day genius.

I've seen a Pedersolli factory tour on Youtube and I couldn't believe their methods. Many of the processes seemed very archaic at best, and their equipment is dated. I don't know what their production is, but I do know that what they do make isn't worth much in my view. Just being honest... I wouldn't consider them any sort of an expert (CNC, stock making etc. etc.). None of their flintlock rifles even come close to looking like a proper longrifle. I'm sure no one in the company understands what a longrifle should be and further they take shortcuts all over to save time and effort.

After watching the video I was literally astonished and not in a good way...

Not trying to bash them, but just sharing my thoughts since this was brought up. Hopefully nothing wrong with honesty.

I've had only 2 Pedersolis. Both were of outstanding quality. Still got one, a flintlock. It is as fast as my Kibler, although I must be more careful with the loading.

 

[James Kibler]

I've had only 2 Pedersolis. Both were of outstanding quality. Still got one, a flintlock. It is as fast as my Kibler, although I must be more careful with the loading.

So I consider them to be terrible quality. Why do you think we have such differing opinions?

 

[Adam in WI]

Different standards....

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

So I consider them to be terrible quality. Why do you think we have such differing opinions?

Jim, First off I love your guns. I do have one simple question, and a statement.

Is there any chance of a percussion version of the SMR in the future. I know caps are tough to find right now but I love the balance and hold and sight alignment on the SMR and would also love a percussion version to add to the collection. Then I can compete in percussion and flintlock categories using almost identical rifles.

Secondly there is nothing wrong with the Pedersoli the frontier flintlock 45 cal I had a while back was a great shooter with zero failures to fire - of course this was after I converted it to percussion as it was a turd before that. Once I got a properly built and quality flintlock it's impossible to go back to anything less in quality. It would be like driving a Corvette every day to work and then one day you have to drive an old beat-up Pinto. Sure both will get you to work but ones much better quality and performs better, more reliable, faster, and most importantly holds a resale value.

 

[smokepolehall]

I've had only 2 Pedersolis. Both were of outstanding quality. Still got one, a flintlock. It is as fast as my Kibler, although I must be more careful with the loading.

You must have bought them years ago. The one i got has about turned me against using flintlocks. Pedersorry made today suck n their prices are insane. Just the patient BP is the pits! It's going on the second year of working on this Scout . Who wants to spend couple of years trying to get a rifle to shoot. Many here say sell it. Sure and take a loss so bad its pathetic. I had rather hang it on the Wall to gather dust !

 

[wiscoaster]

The factory Pedersolis are much better than their kits. Done both, and I don't think one general critique fits both equally. That being said, neither is in the same class as a Kibler.

 

[vintovka]

So I consider them to be terrible quality. Why do you think we have such differing opinions?

Need to add in the time factor. Sorry to say after 2020 inconsistancies in many mass produced items seems apparent. Europe was (and continues to be) affected. I see many adding a pre covid premium to their wares.

 

[Mike in FL]

Pedersoli makes a decent percussion rifle. There is a place for most of their flintlocks though. That would be the store’s rack. Leave them there.

I cannot agree with that. Although I have only one of their flintlocks, it is near perfect. Sparks well and has instant ignition if I pay close attention when loading. Bought it new about a year ago. All it needed was a coned flash hole liner, a $5 fix. Perhaps the construction methods

So I consider them to be terrible quality. Why do you think we have such differing opinions?

Maybe I just got one that was especially good. I don't know. I do know I have tried and tried to develop a load for my Colonial and could never get it to shoot as accurately as the Pedersolj. But I'm just one person and I'm certain my experience is not the norm. Your guns are far superior in overall quality and I very much hope to get another.

 

[sturmkatze]

So I consider them to be terrible quality. Why do you think we have such differing opinions?

Because you make guns. And you were a gun maker BEFORE you started your cnc stuff. You have high standards.

I personally can’t see pedersoli getting into your kind of guns. It would be hard for them to get the new machines (didn’t you say your new one alone was like $500k?) and they would need the cnc programming knowledge. Then to set up for each gun. You are so far ahead of the curve that I don’t see anyone getting there anytime soon. You’re not making muskets or Sharp’s rifles.

My opinions. Also, I’ve watched the videos you referenced. Old world production and most of those old guys probably passed away during covid.

 

[wiscoaster]

....

I personally can’t see pedersoli getting into your kind of guns. It would be hard for them to get the new machines (didn’t you say your new one alone was like $500k?) and they would need the cnc programming knowledge. Then to set up for each gun. You are so far ahead of the curve that I don’t see anyone getting there anytime soon. You’re not making muskets or Sharp’s rifles.

....

Well, yes and no. No on the machines; that's no problem for a company that big. Yes on the CNC programming and especially a different program needed for each gun. Very lengthy startup curve. I can't see them doing it. They're making money doing things same-o-same-o and have a major market share. There's no corporate incentive to update technology and processes.

 

[smokepolehall]

I cannot agree with that. Although I have only one of their flintlocks, it is near perfect. Sparks well and has instant ignition if I pay close attention when loading. Bought it new about a year ago. All it needed was a coned flash hole liner, a $5 fix. Perhaps the construction methods

Maybe I just got one that was especially good. I don't know. I do know I have tried and tried to develop a load for my Colonial and could never get it to shoot as accurately as the Pedersolj. But I'm just one person and I'm certain my experience is not the norm. Your guns are far superior in overall quality and I very much hope to get another.

Sell your Colonial problem solved. Plus like you said your Pedersorry is better & can outshoot the Kibler !

 

[jdw276]

The Kibler side effect I think has been the elimination of the hobby buider. Who is that? The builder who makes 5 or 6 rifles a year part time, has no back log of orders, does it in the evening after their day job. May get a call to have a specific rifle built and can do it in say 4 months. Trying to say build a business for something serious to do in retirement. Sources their own parts and sold their guns for say $1,400 and up depending on complexity, carving etc. Very high quality work that folks are very proud to own because it is personal. Many are gone from building and do not bother with a gun a year. I am not referring to the professional builder who has years of order backlog, name brand, employees.

They have been replaced by a DIY market. Nothing wrong with it but it has taken some of the personal touch out of th industry. The builder you can call and say how is it coming along? Or get that call i started your build, it is done and shipping tomorrow. The builder with the knowledge of the rilfe, who is a shooter and can take some time to have that personal conversation. Jim can do it, but he has a business to build and run.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

I have on Pedersoli left a 54 round ball Tryon. It shoots where I want it to.
The other Tryon shot as well, and was sold to a guy in the NW for big game hunting.
3rd was a Mortimer 12 ga smoothie flintlock. I was going to use it to shoot play targets in MLee competition.
But after shooting several hundred thousand clay targets with suppository guns. I just couldn't get the feel of it so I sold it to a guy in Albany New York.

I've had three Kibler guns come my way. All three sold for more than what the owners paid for them!

When I compare one of Jim's rifles , or another similar; to somebody else's. I look to see if it was a production gun or a scratch built.
We've discussed this before & Jim's guns are production kit guns.
Higher quality -easier assembly- less fooling around with.

Still I'd find it hard to give up my Louis Smith, Bob Ray, Jack Patterson built guns.

Just my opinion,your mileage may differ.
Bill

 

[mikesto44]

I made mention that a Kibler was like a blank canvas to work with. It is an it isn't in some ways. The lop is fixed pretty much an drop at heal and cast off. But on the other hand the carving, wire inlay or other features are up to the custom builder an customer. I've seen more than one of Jim's kits after being done by knowledgeable builders go near the 3k price. Which isn't to bad considering that 90% of the wood work is done for you an it cuts down on your time overall. Just my opinion.

 

[Mike in FL]

Sell your Colonial problem solved. Plus like you said your Pedersorry is better & can outshoot the KKib

Sell your Colonial problem solved. Plus like you said your Pedersorry is better & can outshoot the Kibler !

I didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Both are inanimate objects and not worth getting upset about. Don't you know opinions differ from person to person? And that one man's experience might differ from another's? Should we refrain from posting what might not be pleasing to someone else? I said nothing derogatory about anyone. Sarcasm is seldom polite.

 

[jdw276]

I made mention that a Kibler was like a blank canvas to work with. It is an it isn't in some ways. The lop is fixed pretty much an drop at heal and cast off. But on the other hand the carving, wire inlay or other features are up to the custom builder an customer. I've seen more than one of Jim's kits after being done by knowledgeable builders go near the 3k price. Which isn't to bad considering that 90% of the wood work is done for you an it cuts down on your time overall. Just my opinion.

There is a market Jim most likely will never get into. Many custom builders will not either for personal reasons.

Lefties.

 

[RB POWELL]

1st off let me state that I don't own a Kibler but I've read a lot of threads on how user friendly they are to assemble and finish.
Is it possible that with the popularity of the Kibler kits, that other kit makers will be inspired to follow suit with their kits to make them more user friendly for those less mechanically or skillfully inclined?
I've built several so called "kits" from other makers and they required a lot and I mean a lot of hours and hand work, where as the Kiblers sound so much easier.

Kibler has invested a ton of money and time in their CNC machines and design process. Jim is an engineer, as well as master builder. The combination works. Some grumblers think the kits are too easy. Well, if you want to start by felling a tree, more power to you. I appreciate your skill, and dedication. By the way, Kibler's customer service, and how-to videos are second to none.

 

[sportster73hp]

I have two Kiblers. I also have built from trees fell by myself . Making a lock from scratch is next on my list of things to try. Probably never happen but i want to forge a barrel.