Is pure lead really necessary for muzzle loading balls or bullet in rifle or hand gun ?

[waksupi]

Go back and read the thread and you'll find that we're in agreement.

I was mocking the OP's opinion that 5 BHN is fine and 9 to 12 BHN is an accident waiting to happen.

I WAS agreeing with you!

 

[flntlokr]

About 20 years ago I picked up about 2000 lbs of counter weight lead from a crane and upon hardness testing found it had some alloy other than pure lead in it. It cast well but was a few points harder than pure lead which is a bit under 5 Brinell hardness number. It cast well so I know it was antimony and tin alloyed and drops about 8-9 BHN unless I cut it with pure lead.
I have a life time supply of lead from the counterweights alone and have added another 1000 lbs or so from folks that wanted to give me some to get rid of for them.
Old wheel weights were good but drop about 10-12 BHN which is a bit hard for patched ball use but works fine in conicals from what I have experienced.
I have not tried this alloy with mini-balls so cannot say how it works for them.
Modern wheel weights are not usually very good as they are alloyed with zinc and do not cast well.
I can't see a nickles worth of difference in accuracy, casting ease or barrel leading of my non certified lead alloy from the certified I have tried.

Pretty much my observation over 30 yrs+, I even tried ball bearings in my rifle; they just shot higher. I would tend to stick with softer lead alloy in revolvers where the tight fit of ball/cylinder is required. Never tried hard stuff with one of them.

 

[M. De Land]

Pretty much my observation over 30 yrs+, I even tried ball bearings in my rifle; they just shot higher. I would tend to stick with softer lead alloy in revolvers where the tight fit of ball/cylinder is required. Never tried hard stuff with one of them.

What surprised me most about this thread is the emotion it seemed to stir up over a rather simple question !
Actually from a personal perspective the only doubts I had about BHN pressure increases, since I have shot medium hard alloys in both pistol and rifle , patched and bare bullet, was in relation to skirt expansion in minie ball use.
Also, I know harder alloy raises breech pressure and wondered about the safety margin in thin barreled vintage musket use.
I had also read that hard alloy could bend loading levers at seating but had not experienced it .

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

If you're shooting from a rifled barrel, the concern I would have is whether it is soft enough to seat in the rifling grooves. Ammo that is too hard will sometimes fail to engage the rifling grooves.

In RB that is what the patch is for. As far as slugs go, I don't use them, so I don't know. Semper Fi.

 

[Joemolf]

Good discussion so far @M. De Land, but your topic question is a little deceiving.
You ask about Pure lead,(?) And that stuff is hard to find. More to the point is "soft" vr "hard" right?
The discussions I've seen for decades have always been to not only to recommend "soft" but the most success has been found with the same across most applications with the types of guns used/talked about in this forum.
So at what BHN rating is an alloy still 'soft" enough and at which does it become "hard"? Get where I'm going with this?

It's surprising that with 3000# of bulk scrap lead in your possession, that you don't have a reliable tester to use. They are expensive now-a-days I get that. But with the amount of casting ahead of you, it might be a good investment(?)
I mean honest, scratching with a thumbnail is directly related to how hard ya scratch,, for anyone, pencil test,(?) same thing how hard do ya push the pencil? How about the drop test? Thud or ring sound? (really?) What do you drop it on? The 4's of cement of a fractured 60yr old garage floor or 8"s of concrete at the new factory?

I've been using salvage X-ray room lead for a decade now, I sent a sample to another member that has a tester and it came back at 7-8 BHN, that stuff works fine, shaves rings in my revolvers, and wins trophies with my rifles. Although the guy I sent it to, did say it's a bit hard.
Point is, I don't think it's about "pure' lead,, it's about soft,,

So if I am buying lead which is what I do and it is supposedly pure lead it sounds like from the discussion here It may in fact not be pure lead ? I cast very little but I do for my fat groove bullets for my 44-40 and 45LC that I had molds made for. And yes I have to pour a lot of lead because not all come out so well. Like mentioned here I think i was told to add 1 percent of tin I think which is irrelevant to me I want to just pour pure lead which I seemed to have been lucky with thus far. I ordered a bunch of 44-40 this morning I never realized they are not pure they contain 1 percent of the alloy to get them so they drop and finish nice. So I guess does midway and Buffalo Arms lead meet the criteria for being pure lead. Just wondering.

 

[Joemolf]

I broke the loading lever of a Walker repro using lead balls that were gifted to me (Ha, some gift!). Ever since then, probably 30 years, I have used lead that I knew the origin of, mostly old lead piping. But watch out for spiders, they go Bang with a vengeance!

I thought i was the only one though I recently purchased a pietta sheriffs model 44 short barrel and I bent the lever using swaged round balls spears if I’m not mistaken. I guess a hardness tester is required to verify exactly what you have. Though I must add i used one of those six extenders because the lever itself is very short. I was able to straighten it out probably needs to be heat treated?

 

[M. De Land]

I thought i was the only one though I recently purchased a pietta sheriffs model 44 short barrel and I bent the lever using swaged round balls spears if I’m not mistaken. I guess a hardness tester is required to verify exactly what you have. Though I must add i used one of those six extenders because the lever itself is very short. I was able to straighten it out probably needs to be heat treated?

Yeah, I never use lever extensions for that very reason. Better a thick leather glove to protect your hand on the lever that comes with the gun and less ball/bullet diameter.

 

[M. De Land]

Use a cylinder loading press and its a non issue.

True but they are hard to wag along in the hunting woods or trail walks .

 

[M. De Land]

Pretty much my observation over 30 yrs+, I even tried ball bearings in my rifle; they just shot higher. I would tend to stick with softer lead alloy in revolvers where the tight fit of ball/cylinder is required. Never tried hard stuff with one of them.

I bet those ball bearings were good on the land corners of your barrel. Very likely cut through the patch and peened the corners down !

 

[Uncle Miltie]

For round ball I always use very soft
lead. Lead pipe and sheet are the best salvage buys for this stuff.

For my slug and picket rifles I use pure refined lead because they shoot best with it.

Using bastard alloys of unknown or inconsistent composition is likely responsible for many "bad days" at the range.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

A thread that addresses using pure lead as opposed to using harder wheel weight lead in black powder firearms.

Finally!

I was afraid it would never happen.

I'm looking forward to this thread producing new Pb information.
Well at least raising the click count for advertising purposes.

 

[Muley Gil]

Minie balls, used in muzzleloading rifle muskets, should be cast from pure lead in order for the skirts to expand.

 

[necchi]

this thread producing new Pb information.

What's Pb mean? Oh, lead. I get it.
I don't think the topic is "click-bait",
I think it's just the OP trying too find validation from others here to use hard lead,,(?)
I don't have a definitive answer. I just shared my experience., others may feel different, that's ok,,

 

[M. De Land]

What's Pb mean? Oh, lead. I get it.
I don't think the topic is "click-bait",
I think it's just the OP trying too find validation from others here to use hard lead,,(?)
I don't have a definitive answer. I just shared my experience., others may feel different, that's ok,,

I give some thought to your hypothesis of motive but validation is not correct as I have used my 8-9 BHN for two decades with no issues just not in Minie balls or conicals in revolvers.
The new Walker was my very first venture into bullet shooting in percussion revolvers last month and so was asking feed back of those who shoot them regularly.
I don't have any thin barreled vintage muskets that shoot Minie balls either only the heavy barreled Hawken Hunter from Navy Arms developed by Hal Forgett for heavy Minie and Maxie loads he used in Africa.
I need to dig through my mold box as I think I just might have a Minie ball mold some where around here I have never used for my loads.
I did make a copy of the Thompson Center Maxi mold that works well and drops a casting that weighs 620 grains in .58 cal. I chronographed that load in the Hawken Hunter using the aforementioned 150 grain charge of Goex 2 F and it was going 1400 fps which astonished me from the short heavy 26 inch barrel.
I must say it sure felt like it from the massive recoil ! It was the load that I could count on to hit a 4 inch circle at 100 yards in that gun and was for moose hunting in bear country here in AK.
If I can find that Minie mold I'll cast up some using my counter weight alloy and see if I can do some wet paper shooting and recovery for skirt examination.
I remember casting some Minie's one time years ago but it might have been with a borrowed mold when I once owned a Zoave and a Buffalo Hunter in .58 cal for a short spell.

 

[Felix the Cat]

An interesting thread..

My tuppence worth..

Hardened lead was very much in vogue at the end of the muzzle loading era in UK. The .451 Rigby, Henry and Metford barrels had very shallow rifling and were designed to be used with long, flat based, paper patched antimony alloy bullets.

In addition to a hardness tester, a lead thermometer is also a useful tool in estimating what alloy you have. Most bullets are made from a lead-tin alloy and you can work out the alloy from the melting point. If you look at a lead-tin phase diagram, the pure metals melt at the highest temperature. As you add tin to lead, the melting point drops until you reach what is known as the "Eutectic" when the melting point rises as more tin is added until you reach pure tin. The Eutectic alloy is the hardest. By watching what temperature your alloy melts, it will tell you what mixture you have and roughly how hard it will cast.

Hard alloy does not really affect the wear or pressure in a Black Powder gun. BP, unlike that nasty nitro stuff, is not that pressure sensitive. Gun barrels wear mostly by gas wash at the end of the chamber as hot gas leaks around the bullet before it seats. Muzzle loaders wear more at the muzzle as a result of the friction from ram rods, particularly dirty ones! Never forget that the Egyptians used to cut stone blocks with sand and string.. wipe your rammer and remove grit from it before using it every time (particularly you lot that live in dry, sandy places) !

Whilst on this theme.. I would suggest that using aluminium foil as a patch material is a REALLY BAD IDEA. Aluminium metal is very soft, but the aluminium oxide which coats it is VERY HARD and will do serious damage to your barrel! Aluminium oxide is the basis of many abrasive compounds and grindstones..!

The military use aluminium cases for aircraft cannon to save weight, but it wears out the chambers very quickly. Air forces usually have deep pockets to pay for this though...

Just sayin!

 

[stikshooter]

Wheel weights if not water dropped or furnace hardened and quenched usually set up right a 10- 12 BHN after 7-8 days and stay within a point or two of the hardness for years where as lead/ tin alloys soften several numbers within a season if not kept in a freezer.
Pure lead without some tin does not cast worth sour apples and has a shrinkage rate of something like 3 percent from the mold cavity .
This stability and lack of shrinkage after casting is what I prefer about lead/tin/ antimony alloys for projectiles.
I do think that if one is going to use wheel weights in revolvers than it makes sense to ream out the chamber mouths to barrel groove diameter as bump up from pure lead use will not be as assured.
I also think smaller ball diameters should be used so that not as much lead is sheared off at seating. All that is needed is a complete seal around the chamber mouth without any gaps.

Strange my pure (sheet lead) needs nothing for sharp edges/bases except running the pot hot , and weight is right up there with mold specs +or - a couple grains (Lyman GP in 50/54 cal ) depending on my casting ability that day . My 530 gr Ellipticals @ 20-1 for shooting long , keeps the nose straight and bases sharp for target /Ed

 

[Gordoncourtney]

An interesting thread..

My tuppence worth..

Hardened lead was very much in vogue at the end of the muzzle loading era in UK. The .451 Rigby, Henry and Metford barrels had very shallow rifling and were designed to be used with long, flat based, paper patched antimony alloy bullets.

In addition to a hardness tester, a lead thermometer is also a useful tool in estimating what alloy you have. Most bullets are made from a lead-tin alloy and you can work out the alloy from the melting point. If you look at a lead-tin phase diagram, the pure metals melt at the highest temperature. As you add tin to lead, the melting point drops until you reach what is known as the "Eutectic" when the melting point rises as more tin is added until you reach pure tin. The Eutectic alloy is the hardest. By watching what temperature your alloy melts, it will tell you what mixture you have and roughly how hard it will cast.

Hard alloy does not really affect the wear or pressure in a Black Powder gun. BP, unlike that nasty nitro stuff, is not that pressure sensitive. Gun barrels wear mostly by gas wash at the end of the chamber as hot gas leaks around the bullet before it seats. Muzzle loaders wear more at the muzzle as a result of the friction from ram rods, particularly dirty ones! Never forget that the Egyptians used to cut stone blocks with sand and string.. wipe your rammer and remove grit from it before using it every time (particularly you lot that live in dry, sandy places) !

Whilst on this theme.. I would suggest that using aluminium foil as a patch material is a REALLY BAD IDEA. Aluminium metal is very soft, but the aluminium oxide which coats it is VERY HARD and will do serious damage to your barrel! Aluminium oxide is the basis of many abrasive compounds and grindstones..!

The military use aluminium cases for aircraft cannon to save weight, but it wears out the chambers very quickly. Air forces usually have deep pockets to pay for this though...

Just sayin!

An interesting thread..

My tuppence worth..

Hardened lead was very much in vogue at the end of the muzzle loading era in UK. The .451 Rigby, Henry and Metford barrels had very shallow rifling and were designed to be used with long, flat based, paper patched antimony alloy bullets.

In addition to a hardness tester, a lead thermometer is also a useful tool in estimating what alloy you have. Most bullets are made from a lead-tin alloy and you can work out the alloy from the melting point. If you look at a lead-tin phase diagram, the pure metals melt at the highest temperature. As you add tin to lead, the melting point drops until you reach what is known as the "Eutectic" when the melting point rises as more tin is added until you reach pure tin. The Eutectic alloy is the hardest. By watching what temperature your alloy melts, it will tell you what mixture you have and roughly how hard it will cast.

Hard alloy does not really affect the wear or pressure in a Black Powder gun. BP, unlike that nasty nitro stuff, is not that pressure sensitive. Gun barrels wear mostly by gas wash at the end of the chamber as hot gas leaks around the bullet before it seats. Muzzle loaders wear more at the muzzle as a result of the friction from ram rods, particularly dirty ones! Never forget that the Egyptians used to cut stone blocks with sand and string.. wipe your rammer and remove grit from it before using it every time (particularly you lot that live in dry, sandy places) !

Whilst on this theme.. I would suggest that using aluminium foil as a patch material is a REALLY BAD IDEA. Aluminium metal is very soft, but the aluminium oxide which coats it is VERY HARD and will do serious damage to your barrel! Aluminium oxide is the basis of many abrasive compounds and grindstones..!

The military use aluminium cases for aircraft cannon to save weight, but it wears out the chambers very quickly. Air forces usually have deep pockets to pay for this though...

Just sayin!

That’s a good reply , to thinking outside the box, one can only try .

 

[Joemolf]

Sorry collected a few guns over the years , not allowed to shoot them, I am 80 fit as a fiddle

I have a long long garden with plenty pigeons and squirrels, plus 177&22 bsa , scorpion airguns , shot all my life even in Nigeria , no animals there all got eaten ha h Scorpio air guns. So happy enough with my lot, but frustrated I cannot test my guns, Such is life in this green and pleasant land

I would be smiling too if I were you! Very nice especially the recliner right in the middle of it all! Good for you!

 

[earlwb]

I have buckets of old wheel weights. I don’t hunt. I also don’t want to break a rammer. Will they work for a revolver? I am not concerned with expansion. I shoot targets.

If you use a separate cylinder loading stand and tools then it would not be a problem with a revolver. Now if the bullets are a tiny bit undersized so that they are kind of a slip fit but snug enough to not move from the recoil then that would work too. But tight where the chambers would shave a ring of lead from the bullets then no do not load using the revolver’s loading lever.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I have used recycled range lead for Decades.