Is excess powder really blown out?

[Stumpkiller]

You Gulliver, you. ;-)

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Black hand says: You have demonstrated the greater mass of the ball is slowed upon contact with the denser air. The pressure also moves laterally at this point.

You make two fundamental mistaken assumptions with your statement.

1. pressure can only exist in matter, the flame and gasses that exit the muzzle are matter under pressure. Matter is subject to inertia. Those gases and flame were traveling somewhere between 900 to 2,000 ft per second at the moment the ball exited the muzzle. What makes you think that the flame and gasses continue for some distance but the pressure does not. The pressure can not exist without them.

2. Do you know what atmospheric pressure at sea level is? How can you say the atmospheric pressure of the air is higher (ie air denser)than the pressure of the flame and gas moving 900 to 2,000 ft per sec when it is exiting the muzzle. The obverse of your thinking is that the air is denser, at higher pressure than the gas and flames behind the ball. If that were true the air would keep the ball from exiting the muzzle.

3. Mr. Bernuli negated your idea 280 yrs ago.

Since most of your other statements are based upon the two fallacious assumptions, there is no need to address them.

Black hand also says" "Air resistance is always present. A combination of air resistance/friction and gravity slow the projectile."

finally a true statement, but perhaps not in the way you intend. There is air resistance even within the barrel as the ball starts to accelerate. But it is overcome by the substantially higher pressure of the gases expanding/pushing behind the ball. Those gases have reached far more than atmospheric pressure just to be able to accelerate the ball out of the bore. Those gases speeding forward behind the ball have inertia, just like shot fired from a shotgun. The shot doesn't immediately disperse in 360 directions at the muzzle. Because the gas has less mass, it does not have the same inertia, but there is still inertia that forms the muzzle flash seen in those night photographs of muzzle loaders being fired. Every one of those night shots shares something in common., The same general initial cone shaped pattern near the muzzle. Those gases can't suddenly make a 90 degree turn at muzzle exit because of inertia moving them forward. As those gases that had been compressed into a tiny narrow column behind the ball exit they are both moving forward and starting to spread and slow down, hence the cone type pattern for the first foot or two. Those gases while moving forward do start to spread side ways and up and down. the compressed gases that had been in that thin tube spread into that cone shape which is much much larger in volume, reducing the pressure as it travels along that cone and spreading wider and within a few feet equalizes with atmospheric pressure. The entire process take a small fraction of a second.

Acting on the ball, is the air resistance of the air compressing ahead of it as it accelerates down the bore. There is air resistance at the moment of exit, but within milliseconds the hot gases also carried forward by inertia and having much higher pressure, overtake the ball and pass it for a short distance. The effect is pushing the air momentarily ahead of the ball and also pushing the ball from behind for a very short distance. the gases decompress in the air and slow down, inertia causes the ball to keep moving and passes out of the cloud of flame and gas that propelled it down the bore and surrounded it just outside the muzzle. At this point again, air resistance caused by the inertia of the air gases is the only factor affecting speed. It is a matter of which matter has enough energy to over come the other and at what point along the travel down the bore, out the muzzle and down range. A corollary to Newton's objects in motion principal."An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Firing the gun involves a series of forces upon the rest and motion of the ball.

 

[Black Hand]

Black hand says: You have demonstrated the greater mass of the ball is slowed upon contact with the denser air. The pressure also moves laterally at this point.

You make two fundamental mistaken assumptions with your statement.

1. pressure can only exist in matter, the flame and gasses that exit the muzzle are matter under pressure. Matter is subject to inertia. Those gases and flame were traveling somewhere between 900 to 2,000 ft per second at the moment the ball exited the muzzle. What makes you think that the flame and gasses continue for some distance but the pressure does not. The pressure can not exist without them.

2. Do you know what atmospheric pressure at sea level is? How can you say the atmospheric pressure of the air is higher (ie air denser)than the pressure of the flame and gas moving 900 to 2,000 ft per sec when it is exiting the muzzle. The obverse of your thinking is that the air is denser, at higher pressure than the gas and flames behind the ball. If that were true the air would keep the ball from exiting the muzzle.

3. Mr. Bernuli negated your idea 280 yrs ago.

Since most of your other statements are based upon the two fallacious assumptions, there is no need to address them.

Black hand also says" "Air resistance is always present. A combination of air resistance/friction and gravity slow the projectile."

finally a true statement, but perhaps not in the way you intend. There is air resistance even within the barrel as the ball starts to accelerate. But it is overcome by the substantially higher pressure of the gases expanding/pushing behind the ball. Those gases have reached far more than atmospheric pressure just to be able to accelerate the ball out of the bore. Those gases speeding forward behind the ball have inertia, just like shot fired from a shotgun. The shot doesn't immediately disperse in 360 directions at the muzzle. Because the gas has less mass, it does not have the same inertia, but there is still inertia that forms the muzzle flash seen in those night photographs of muzzle loaders being fired. Every one of those night shots shares something in common., The same general initial cone shaped pattern near the muzzle. Those gases can't suddenly make a 90 degree turn at muzzle exit because of inertia moving them forward. As those gases that had been compressed into a tiny narrow column behind the ball exit they are both moving forward and starting to spread and slow down, hence the cone type pattern for the first foot or two. Those gases while moving forward do start to spread side ways and up and down. the compressed gases that had been in that thin tube spread into that cone shape which is much much larger in volume, reducing the pressure as it travels along that cone and spreading wider and within a few feet equalizes with atmospheric pressure. The entire process take a small fraction of a second.

Acting on the ball, is the air resistance of the air compressing ahead of it as it accelerates down the bore. There is air resistance at the moment of exit, but within milliseconds the hot gases also carried forward by inertia and having much higher pressure, overtake the ball and pass it for a short distance. The effect is pushing the air momentarily ahead of the ball and also pushing the ball from behind for a very short distance. the gases decompress in the air and slow down, inertia causes the ball to keep moving and passes out of the cloud of flame and gas that propelled it down the bore and surrounded it just outside the muzzle. At this point again, air resistance caused by the inertia of the air gases is the only factor affecting speed. It is a matter of which matter has enough energy to over come the other and at what point along the travel down the bore, out the muzzle and down range. A corollary to Newton's objects in motion principal."An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Firing the gun involves a series of forces upon the rest and motion of the ball.

Once you resorted to name-calling, I stopped caring what you had to say. I would gladly have continued with the discussion, but you still haven't provided hard evidence and the "turnip farmer" ad hominem lost the argument for you. Have a great day and try to remember the rules of civil discussion for next time...

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Once you resorted to name-calling, I stopped caring what you had to say. I would gladly have continued with the discussion, but you still haven't provided hard evidence and the "turnip farmer" ad hominem lost the argument for you. Have a great day and try to remember the rules of civil discussion for next time...

Several times I have given you the chance to rebut my arguments. You were the one that first attacked me instead of rebutting the argument. Yes, the rules of civil debate do not include deflection when cornered. For some one who does not care about the subject of what happens during discharge of a muzzle loader, you have repetitively assailed us with changing the subject, name calling and irrelevant posts about not caring. The numerous posts that this is insignificant, does not matter to you etc, are mutually exclusive to the claim that you do not care. Your persistent non-responsive posts discredit your professed disinterest.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Blackhand: Upon re reading my post, I can see how you interpreted that I was calling you a turnip farmer. It was a poor attempt at simile and the analogy was unclear. For that I am sorry. In plainer English. Be happy with the part of the world you care about and stop interrupting people who do care about some small knowledge that you prefer not to know.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Zzzzzzz

 

[Stumpkiller]

Black hand also says" "Air resistance is always present. A combination of air resistance/friction and gravity slow the projectile."

finally a true statement, but perhaps not in the way you intend.

Partially - gravity does not slow the ball. It just tends to pull the bullet it towards the center of the earth until it hits something. In fact, it ACCELERATES the bullet at a steady rate in the downward direction. ;-)

Now, regarding navel lint . . .

 

[Britsmoothy]

Partially - gravity does not slow the ball. It just tends to pull the bullet it towards the center of the earth until it hits something. In fact, it ACCELERATES the bullet at a steady rate in the downward direction. ;-)

Now, regarding navel lint . . .

Yes, the three great constants.
Gravity.
Taxation and.......death.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Partially - gravity does not slow the ball. It just tends to pull the bullet it towards the center of the earth until it hits something. In fact, it ACCELERATES the bullet at a steady rate in the downward direction. ;-)

Now, regarding navel lint . . .

Sorry but Blackhand was correct. gravity does slow the ball. There would be no atmospheric pressure with out gravity pulling the air toward the earth. The pressure of all that air piled up creates the density of the air through which the ball must pass. The higher the density the greater the air resistance. For that reason, there is more air resistance at sea level than lets say a higher elevation like Denver CO. Since the atmospheric pressure is less at high altitudes, water boils at less then 212 degrees F and cakes must be baked for differently etc.

 

[Carbon 6]

In fact, it ACCELERATES the bullet at a steady rate in the downward direction. ;-)
.

Not in an atmosphere. The ball will accelerate until it reaches terminal velocity. If the atmosphere becomes more dense it will slow.
I think what you meant to say was that the rate of acceleration is a constant. 9.8M/s/s
Not that it will continually accelerate.

 

[Carbon 6]

There is also a lateral force constant. The Coriolis effect.

 

[Carbon 6]

1. pressure can only exist in matter, .

What about negative pressure?

 

[Carbon 6]

2. Do you know what atmospheric pressure at sea level is?

.

Depends on the tide and moon phase.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Not in an atmosphere. The ball will accelerate until it reaches terminal velocity. If the atmosphere becomes more dense it will slow.
I think what you meant to say was that the rate of acceleration is a constant. 9.8M/s/s

I'm sorry. I thought "steady rate" was still understood to mean a linear relationship like it was when I went to school.

Oh, look! It does.

 

[Carbon 6]

Wasn't arguing, just adding clarity for those who may not have had the same education as you.
Not every argument is a contradiction and not every contradiction is an argument.
There would be less arguments if everyone knew that.

 

[Stumpkiller]

When it comes right down to it, I doubt Jebediah took out the 'ol Astrolabe to figure whether to lead the elk two additional microradians to compensate for the Coriolis Effect and tidal effect on gravitational gradient. He knew where his rifle shot and how to either get it to hit there or get his-self close enough so it could.

 

[Carbon 6]

No argument there, except he could have missed too.

Asrtolabes are neat, but that's another topic.

 

[Britsmoothy]

No argument there, except he could have missed too.

Asrtolabes are neat, but that's another topic.

Please no......

 

[Carbon 6]

Please no......

We could always discuss which British beer is best.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

What about negative pressure?

Negative pressure is just a way of saying less than ambient pressure. You cannot have a pressure less than 0 pounds per square inch. so negative, as in a negative number of pressure cannot exist. Negative pressure as in 3 pounds per square inch less than atmospheric pressure can exist. Such as in vacuum packed foods. Negative air flow rooms in hospitals, sometimes have slightly lower air pressure.