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Ignition Problems - Lyman Deerstalker

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theHoofer

32 Cal.
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I'm continuing to have problems with ignition in my 50 cal percussion Deerstalker. After a 5 day deer hunt where I left the gun loaded but capped and decapped every evening, the gun did not go off on the first cap!! (the weather was dry all week by the way) Lucky the shot was at a gravel bank and not an eight pointer!!

I've been using pipe cleaners and alcohol to keep the nipple channel dry after cleaning, etc. I'm using 777 FFg grade. Can't get blackpowder around here so far. I also can't find a source of 6 mm x .75 mm nipples - I'd like to get a hot shot or a musket cap nipple for the gun.

Any other advice? I've been having a little trouble at the range with this gun too. Last time, after being extra careful cleaning, and shooting right after, it did go off well. But that was before the hunt.

Frank
 
Its not an issue of being dry during the daytime, but all day AND ALL NIGHT LONG when you leave powder in the gun.

Sorry, but I think you have to dump or pull that load every night, and clean the gun DRY, if you want to have the gun go off. Of course, using a sub is very different than using Black Powder. The subs are based on oxidizers, like ascorbic acid. That begins to combine with moisture in the air no matter how " Dry " the air may feel to you. As the moisture mixes with the powder, the powder deterriorates.

If you insist on NOT dumping ( that means shooting) or pulling the loads( CO2, or Ball jag) every night, then about the only thing I can suggest you try is to put cellophane wrap( Saran Wrap for instance) on top of the nipple before you seat the cap. That should give a very good vapor seal to the nipple when the cap is placed on the nipple.

Then, at the muzzle, put a piece of cellophane over the muzzle before you load the patch and ball, or conical, or sabot, or whatever projectile you intend to use. Trim the cellophane when you trim the patch. The plastic wrap will provide a full vapor barrier between the powder and the muzzle of the gun regardless of the weather. It should also burn up fairly completely when the gun is fired. The piece over the nipple will also burn up or at least burn through when the cap fires, at most leaving a bit of wrap around the nipple, which can be easily removed.

I don't know what alcohol is going to do with that substitute powder you are using. It may break the powder down chemically. So, I do not recommend using alcohol when there is a load of that powder in the barrel( as you now do) UNTIL you find out from the manufacturer what alcohol will do to the powder.

If you were using Black Powder--- which you aren't--- you can use alcohol to evaporate moisture out of the flash channel, with no harm being done to the powder. Or if you are shooting a flintlock, you can put alcohol on a cleaning patch, and then cover the vent hole with part of the patch, folded virtical, while the rest of the patch is held by the frizzen when its closed. Of course, you won't have priming powder in the pan if you use this method, but it will keep moisture out of the main charge in the barrel, by evaporating any moisture in the barrel out of the barrel through the vent.

If you don't want to put plastic wrap down in your barrel, then cover the muzzle with plastic, oilcloth, well oiled or greased leather, a condom, or any other rubber cover that will prevent moisture from getting down the barrel while you are hunting. I have used electrician's tape, duct tape, masking tape, plastic wrap with a rubber band to hold it to the barrel, and the same kind of wrap using string to hold it to the barrel. I think the plastic wrap under the PRB will do a better job.

I have also considered using an OP wad, then a heavily greased patch just driven down to the OP wad, and then my regular patch and ball driven down on the greased patching, with the grease and the tight OP wad protecting the powder from moisture.

I am shooting Black Powder, only, so I can not tell you if any of these will work with a substitute powder. They should, as they represent a very real vapor barrier if used correctly.
 
Try Cain's Outdoors for the Spitfire nipple: http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/product.asp?c=0&l=Nipples+-+Spitfire . Dixie Gun Works also has the Hot Shot: https://www.dixiegunworks.com/prod...=5838&osCsid=09a85e7315fe5cb489b67519d14715d1 . I had to replace the favtory nipple on my GPR after a couple of years. Replaced it with a Hot Shot from Dixie and never a problem since. That was 25 years ago and it's still going. A lot of people complain about the Lyman factory nipples. But once replaced, they are great rifles. I hope this helps.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The problem is the 777 not your cleaning technique.

Ditch the 777 for some real black powder or Pyrodex. At least Pyrodex has a lower ignition temp that 777.

Real BP would be ideal.

Just :2

HD
 
Hoofer, contact Williams Arm in Port Perry. http://www.williamsarms.net/
I used to deal with them all the time before I moved to CO.Good people. They should be able to help you out.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Frank,
Everyone will have their own opinion about why a gun missfires or hangfires. I have found that when you have this problem the gun probably wasn't dry enough when it was loaded. I have left my gun loaded for a month and it went off like it was just loaded, now I will tell you I was using black powder but have used 777 on occasion without a problem.
First before you load make sure there is no build up of fouling in the breech area then run a dry patch up and down the bore a few times to remove any oil, now put a clean patch on the jag,run it all the way to the bottom and snap 3 or 4 caps,the patch will catch all of the oil and crud, pull the patch out and throw it away, now put a new clean patch on the jag and run it to the bottom and snap one more cap, pull it out and look at it if it has any oil or damp crud on the patch the breech is not dry, the patch should be dry with a slightly brownish color, if it is dry you are ok to load. If you should hunt all day and not fire you gun take the cap off and let your hammer down on a piece of leather or a dry cleaning patch folded in 4, and leave your gun in the cold, don't bring it into a warm house. I have used this method for 35 years and never had a missfire. If you gun has a drum you can pull the cleanout screw and dig out any powder you can see and replace with ffffg priming powder, I've never hunted with a patent breech but I would think you could remove the nipple and put a small amount of powder under the nipple,after you have hunted for a few days and probably only to make you feel better I'm not sure it would be nessasary. Good Luck
Longball 58
 
Hotter Magnum caps :wink: may also help.

Before loading, run your dry patch, snap-off 3 or 4 caps, then load 'er up. Those caps clear the flash channel of crud/debris, and will dry any left-over oil residue.

One more thing, after oiling-up the barrel prior to storage, put the rifle upside-down onto a piece of folded-up paper towel...what the barrel needs stays there--what ever it doesn't need runs onto the toweling and NOT into the snail, drum, patent breech, flash channel, et all, from storage in the "muzzle-up" position. Sometimes too much of a good thing (oil) isn't your best friend :wink: .

Good luck!

Dave
 
Thanks for the tips. I didn't know Triple 7 was harder to ignite than Pyrodex. I have both. Someone said I could go to either FFFg 777 or Pyrodex P and get even easier ignition with the finer powder.
 
Thanks for those tips. I was using a traditions rain gear 'condom-like' thing over the barrel, and this rubber seal-thing over the nipple. However, at night the gun was in our very warm camp. Maybe the humid air in there got to the powder, even though I had the hammer down on the nipple.

It seems like this gun has a fairly big narrow section at the bottom that I don't reach with my jag and cleaning patch. This must be leaving water or cleaning fluid down there.
 
Here's one problem that I've found on my own & talking to others after the fact.

777 hates to be compressed & if you load your rifle like a few of us do with just a good feel of compression you can get a failure to fire issue, my CVA Bobcat was the same way when I tried the 777 FFFG powder but when I just loaded it with just the ball sitting on the charge I had less FTF's.

Since you can't get ahold of some Black Powder, try some Pyrodex P, yes it's for a pistol but trust me it burns a lot easier that RS & isn't as touchy as 777 & as long as you aren't trying the Super duper 150gr. loads you'r rifle should shoot it just fine.

Like others mentioned about cleaning & making sure that your rifle is dry before loading I agree 100%, the only thing I would add though is when ever you remove the cap from the cone to place a rubber cap over the cone, these are the rubber caps for vaccuum ports in the auto parts section, they will keep any moisture out of the cone area while the cap is off.
 
I've never used 777 but have used Pyro following this procedure - make sure the drum channel is clear and dry. dump your powder charge in and turn the rifle to the drum side and whack the opposite side of the breech a few times to jar grains into the flash channel then load the slug/ball. this insures instant ignition. nothing beats the real deal BP however. Pyro gives more shots per pound than BP but is harder to ignite and it is actually more corrosive due to the fact that it draws moisture faster than BP. I like Pyro in my C&B revolvers but it's sensitive to compression, accuracy varies with compression variation more than BP.
 
I use Prodex RS and like the stuff. My buddy and I tried a "leave it loaded" test to see how it would fare. We left the guns loaded for three weeks and they fired right off, one was a hang fire but both on the first musket cap.

My point: I use a musket caps CCI and RWS on a hotshot nipple and have NO problem getting ignition period; EXCEPT when I forget to clean the gun prior to shooting the 1st time after storage (Oil in the flash chamber issues).

MY guess is you have a bad nipple that isnt seating the caps right. I think it would help to use musket caps for the sub powders. and of course make sure that you dot have oils blocking the spark.
 
I think 777 stinks. Pyrodex too.

The only consistent results I have ever had in a muzzleloader (flint or cap) is with real black powder.

I am in NY and I order my online.

Once I started doing that, WOWIE the positive results I have had. You can put away the file or the drill or the catalog for new hardware away. In 100% of the situations the gun was fine as it was, I just needed real black powder and the problems disappeared!
 
I used a .50 Deerstalker for 18 years and only had trouble once, and that was in a wet snow storm. Get a "HOT SHOT" nipple or a MAGNUM SPITFIRE", and use CCI magnum caps, and always fire a cap before you load. Get real black powder if you can, if not try Pyrodex P. The Deerstalker is a great rifle.
 
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