Idaho's Definition

no i still don

 

[tg]

" would like to add another season that is Flint or earlier, PRB and open fixed sights. A first firearm season in front of everything else. For this I will support the very best I can"

I don't know how the weather/climate conditions in other states effect hunting but an early season in some places with flintlocks can be a fire management nightmare...

The above type of season sounds good if you include pre-cartridge era guns as well (some types of caplocks) it will of course rule out the majority of production guns now available even with the caplocks included, this traditional/primitive hunt thing does take aim at a very linited narrow range of hunters and gear and will be an uphill battle where ever it is puched in its purist form as described above, unless an increase in numbers of folks interested and educated in such a sport grows, and there is little or nothing in the way of information or gear once one logs off the computer.

 

The above type of season sounds good if you include pre-cartridge era guns as well (some types of caplocks) it will of course rule out the majority of production guns now available even with the caplocks included, this traditional/primitive hunt thing does take aim at a very linited narrow range of hunters and gear and will be an uphill battle where ever it is puched in its purist form as described above,

TG,.... I agree, if one attempts to git a "primitive" muzzleloader season (as been previously described) passed by the DNR's nowadays without the help of traditional percussion folks,...... I think they'd have jest about as much luck git'n a "special muzzleloader season" dedicated to "left-handed, blonde-haired martians" (IOW's,... it'd be darn-near-impossible because of the "low-numbers of'em"),.... but, I'll be "root'n" for'em all the way!! eace:

 

thus defining seasonal haverst time as the start of a season. here harvest is normaly done by the first part of augest

sorry i ment to say october lol

 

[3 stinky dogs]

:blue:

 

[Tahquamenon]

CrackStock,

I think that is one of the most thoughtful posts to me that I have seen.

Thanks so much.
:hatsoff:
eace:

Tahquamenon - "Not trying to change minds. Just to open them."

 

[rabbit03]

Claude, thank you so much for writing the following words so clearly. It is my belief that your words are actually more important than anyone may realize. Is this not what the whole country was founded on really? Where we invite people to come in and enjoy what we have and that we respect their opinions but at the same time please don't try and change what we have founded here for the masses. Don't try and change the original intent. For me you don't have to explain it any more clearly than that. Your words are the same ones that have rang true for decades in this country. I applaud you in the way in which you worded this and my hat is off to you,

rabbit03 :hatsoff:



Let me try to explain why this particular forum is here...

I invited people in to talk about how we can keep the muzzleloading season "traditional", in the way we envision it. That is, with traditional weapons and in the style of our forefathers.

If someone drops in and doesn't like what we're talking about - they should simply leave and stay out of the conversation. We aren't here to argue with you about your in-line, but rather discuss how we can maintain the traditional aspect that the season was originally based on.

I don't know how to make this more clear.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Hi Captchee,

Idaho is obvious organized much differently than Michigan as far as our hunting and season arrangements. I think Idaho is way over-legislated. No offense, but I think its way too complicated and it does not need to be IMO

See the Michigan It's our time thread for more info.

But basically, I would like to shoehorn this new primitive season statewide not just a DMU here and there into either the last week of October or the first week or two of November. This is presently during one of our bow seasons which lasts from October 1st to November 14th.
Likely say November 5-14th would be 10 days or even November 8-14th would still be a week running right up to Regular firearm, so you could keep right on hunting if you have not already filled your tags. Even a one buck only (instead of two) during this concept would be ok. If you filled your two tags during this Primitive firearm window, Then you won't be hunting Regular firearm or ML season unless you have doe tags on public or private land where allowed.

While I'm sure that the bow hunters will wage war, I think if the emphasis is the method that I have described (Primitive flint or earlier ignition along with bow) then I think there may be a good chance of making it happen as the majority of modern ML toting bunch will not likely take up a flint or earlier. So the added pressure will be very low and limited at first that will gradually increase.

However if open to cap ignitions, then the impact will be very significant and making the jump backwards from modern to cap is simple and as a staunch bow hunting friend of my said plainly "No way". And I happen to agree.

Also, fire danger from flintlocks should not be an issue for late October through early November in Michigan.

Here is the dates for hunting Whitetail in Michigan:

"
www.michigan.gov/dnr

(To Print: use your browser's print function) Release Date: June 20, 2005
Last Update: June 20, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Important Dates and Season Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hunt Zone Season Dates
Youth Deer Hunt Statewide Sept. 24 - 25, 2005
Archery Statewide Oct. 1 - Nov. 14, 2005
Archery Statewide Dec. 1, 2005 - Jan. 1, 2006
Regular Firearm (can use ML or Bow) Statewide Nov. 15 - 30, 2005
Muzzle-loading Zone 1 Dec. 2 - 11, 2005
Muzzle-loading Zone 2 Dec. 9 - 18, 2005
Muzzle-loading Zone 3 Dec. 2 - 18, 2005
Late Firearm (can use ML) Antlerless deer on private land only in
Special Regulation Counties Dec. 19, 2005 - Jan. 1, 2006
Late Firearm Antlerless deer on private land only in Barry, Branch, Calhoun, Hillsdale, Ionia, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Kent, Lapeer, Lenawee, Oakland, Ottawa, St. Joseph, Sanilac, Tuscola, and Washtenaw Counties Dec. 19, 2005 - Jan. 1, 2006

Antlerless Deer Hunting

Public Land Application Period: July 1-August 1, 2005
Private Land Licenses Available Over-the-Counter: August 2, 2005 at 10 a.m.
Public Land Drawing Results: September 12, 2005 at 10 a.m.
Season Dates: see above

Special Season for Disabled Hunters

A person issued a permit to hunt from a standing vehicle may hunt deer on the October 15 and 16, 2005 on private lands with a firearm. Hunters must have a valid firearm, combination deer, or private land antlerless deer license to participate.
Copyright

 

[oomcurt]

I don't believe it! I really don't! First off we had the war with the inline crowd. Said they weren't traditional. NOW we seem to be starting another one saying the traditional crowd is not right either..we need a Primative one. Gimmee a Break!!! Tell ya all right off...IF...this thing gets to where a Percussion is not the PC thing. And..if one cannot use a TC, GPR, etc BECAUSE they are not "Authentic"...I will be outa here so damm fast it won't be funny. Talk about truly primative..if some want that..let 'em get a straight branch off some tree, split the end, sharpen a flint into a spear point. That..is primative. Sheesh, will this manure NEVER End? :curse:

 

[roundball]

I don't believe it! I really don't! First off we had the war with the inline crowd. Said they weren't traditional. NOW we seem to be starting another one saying the traditional crowd is not right either..we need a Primative one. Gimmee a Break!!! Tell ya all right off...IF...this thing gets to where a Percussion is not the PC thing. And..if one cannot use a TC, GPR, etc BECAUSE they are not "Authentic"...I will be outa here so damm fast it won't be funny. Talk about truly primative..if some want that..let 'em get a straight branch off some tree, split the end, sharpen a flint into a spear point. That..is primative. Sheesh, will this manure NEVER End? :curse:

An interesting study in human behavoir...an aberration, but a study none-the-less...
:front:

 

[Mulebrain]

Back on subject!

I like the Idaho model, but it needs to add more detail. State what is allowed, and be specific! Like: "Sidelock ignition systems of pre 1870 configuration". This statement alone would stop all the other loopeholes, that so many take advantage of. Pictures should be included, for those that still do not understand.

Oh and pictures were taken from this wonderful hunter education online course http://homestudy.ihea.com/advanced/27types.htm

You don't even see any modern guns in their muzzleloader section!

Mule

Everyone should take this course, that is for sure!

 

Tahquamenon
what you are suggesting is basically what we have . Now we have a problem with to many hunters , despite what the F&G want to tell you about numbers being down . In truth we have more hunters then ever before however the numbers compared to total population are down .
So this is how we have our seasons set up . Now this is not from the regs but just as an example .
For unite 19
Archery opens for elk , deer, bear August 28 - September 30
general season
Oct 5 - 15 deer or A tag spike bull only
Oct 16 -24 bull elk only or B tag cow only .

OCT28 - Nov 15 Muzzleloader only
Now this unit may or may not have a traditional muzzleloader hunt if it did it would take the place of the muzzleloader hunt and modern inline firearms are not aloud .
Now at the same time you may see folks hunting that have drawn special tags for moose , doe, whitetail

 

[tg]

"...I will be outa here so damm fast it won't be funny"

oh...I think it would be funny, but I have always found it amusing when people run from or attack that which they do not understand. I do believe the whole point of the thread is to remove as much of the modern influece as possible and many production guns are a mix of the old and new and need some tweeking to fit in the definition of traditional/primitive/PC which are pretty much the same. unless you want to argue in modern conicals because they had minni balls and modern peep sights and adjustable sights because they had peeps on crossbows....but if we do that it is pretty hard to chastise the in-line folks for their "it loads from the front" and " there were in-lines in the 1700's" defenses.

 

[Mulebrain]

They could even allow handgonnes if they wanted to! :haha:
Wonder if anyone has taken game with one of those recently?

 

[tomahawk130]

Hello to all, I haven't posted in a long time as I can't see very well anymore.I think that some small changes in the regs in all states would be a good thing. inline shooters as well as taditional. make it PRB only with open or peep sights. i have a 1807 inline ignition 48cal smoothbore. i did say 48cal. i don't use it anymore as i consider it unsafe to fire. i use now a jackie brown 62cal smoothy. under the current regs in some states my inline is not "primative" evan though its older than dirt. i remember that at one time "pyrodex" stated on its cans never use a charge greater than 110 some years later out they came with pellets 50gr each and you use 3 pellets in one rifle i owned. ( a contradiction of there own statement). we do need all of use to stick togeather for our sport without hurting anyone or anyones economy. i realise that most inlines are fast twist and wouldn't work as well for PRB but it would be better than fighting with the very people that need to stick togeather to keep our sport alive. i am a "primative" hunter when i can go out but i do respect the inline shooters as well. i tried it and didn't like it as well. i think that 209 primers and sabots should not be allowed at all in any case. my intention is not to step on anyones toe's but if the infighting doesn't stop, be it here or in the field then the lawmakers will get there way. " the hunters only fight anyhow" so we'll do it our way. this is not what we need. if i'm lucky i will get 1 more and maybe 2 more trips in the field before i won't be able to see well enough to be safe.enjoy your sport and keep your powder dry. :m2c:

 

Actually I see a new conflict start'n to "fester", due someone refer'n to flintlocks as "primitive" muzzleloaders.

A truely "primitive" muzzleloader, would be designed like the first one invented around the same "period" thet blackpowder was invented, not matchlocks, not doglocks, and certainly not flintlocks.

"Primitive" as defined in my dicshunary is as follows: "Of or pretaining to an earliest or original stage or state."

I hope this defuses a potential arguement, and we can all git back to refer'n to 99.999% of our muzzleloaders as "traditional" rather then "primitive" !! eace: :hatsoff:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[peeweet]

Well said rollingb :thanks:

 

[oomcurt]

Well said indeed! My point in the post I made was basically that.[url] Well...in[/url] addition I seem to see some views by some that the only real traditional muzzleloader is a flint lock. To me that smacks of elitisim. Nothing wrong with folks liking flintlocks as well as noting wrong with folks liking caplocks. What is wrong IMO is this idea or position which some seem to take that anything not a flintlock is not a traditional muzzleloader. Well...to each thier own I guess or would hope that to be...but I'll be danged if I have to adopt that view or be considered sort of a lower class muzzleloader. And for what it is worth..I am not running from or attacking something I do not understand...I understand it very well..and using that type of reasoning as a comback to what I posted is rather insulting, to say the least. IMO.

 

yep i agree as well.
while i like flintlocks , caplocks are good to go in my book , the ones i see at the range are less reliable then my flinter LOL.
BUT in all seriousness caplocks are just as predominant in the history of different parts of this country .
its my opinion that this subject has gotten off track and is no longer about Idaho or its regs .

I have to ask is this a ploy by those who want to see continued dispute . Is it more about someones personal feelings of seeing the modern inline firearms slowly removed from units in Idaho and thus they wish to try an divide others as well ??? I don

 

[Tahquamenon]

Hi Captchee, I'm in blue. You and Rollingb can use my handle instead of "someone" Captchee. When you scribe in that fashion "someone" you are showing disrespect in my view. You can and should speak candidly here. We should be able to do that without personal attacts. I thought we were to consider the Idaho Definition and apply that to our own home states and situations? Which is what I was doing.

I have to ask is this a ploy by those who want to see continued dispute .
Could not be farther from the truth.
Some folks just have engrained paradigm's and just can't handle someone having a different viewpoint.

You and other folks asked me direct questions here in the thread that I did the best I could to answer honestly. You yourself asked me what my position was several times and I told you - several times. My intention was and still is that when approaching the idea to alter or implement ML Hunting seasons that care must be taken to consider the overall impact. These are the questions that will need to be addressed or the odds of success on a large scale are not good IMO.

Is it more about someones personal feelings of seeing the modern inline firearms slowly removed from units in Idaho and thus they wish to try an divide others as well ???
Again, I'm guessing you are referring to me when you say "someone". :winking: To answer, nope not at all. Don't believe me, your not likely going to anyway but I hope so. It's no secret that I appreciate the modern ML. So what? I also appreciate the non-modern ML and that is the context that I am here. (If I don't love sidelocks, then I need to figure out why I have an entire gun safe full of them and just recent aquired another one? :shocking: Wife is going to leave me one of these days if she ever finds out how many ML toys I have!).

I'm positive there are some things that you like that just would not work for me. What the folks that are down on the "Tahquamenon" are missing is that I don't wish to divide anyone. But I see very little speech here where folks are making an attempt to consider the whole picture. Not just the personal agenda's, which we all must admit that we all have to some point or another. I don't want to change anyone's mind. Just to offer some thoughts for consideration that I rarely see anyone else offering.

Mostly all I ever see on this subject is (and it honestly makes me laugh every time I see it, but I'm not laughing at anyone in particular) "Them Inliners need to be thrown out of muzzleloading seasons that were intended to be traditional. They are ruining it for everyone."

The point is that legislators and DNR are not going to simply buy that argument IMO and change things up neat and nice the way many folks here would like. They have the obligation to consider "everyone that participates" not just a special interest here and there (including my own if that were the case). At least that's what my taxes and fees should be going towards. Consideration for everyone and everything as much as possible. I'm trying to offer the team here at this forum some scope as I understand it and am painfully at times willing to talk about it, so that carefully planned approaches can be crafted with the best opportunities for success.

It's actually quite simple as I see things:
Option 1: If your ML season plan looks to legislators and DNR/DF&G like it will: Boost economic and hunting opportunities without exclusion, raise sales tax revenues, not harm or perhaps even help the environment/habitat and garner the widest support possible from folks outside the core agenda, then I think the odds are very good for success. I'm trying to offer considerations to this discussion that will help. Not divide.

Option 2: On the other hand, if your ML season plan looks like nothing more than a "special interest that does not like the way things turned out, not getting their way, and in some cases have waited decades to do something about it" and it does very little, none, or the opposite of the above Option 1 elements, then I think the odds for success are very low to non existant. Regardless of what folks will say was the "intent" of said ML seasons that are presently in place.

It's called compromise and negotiation folks. If it does not look like all that have a stake are considered (including those with views and equipment that you don't agree), even if some loose and others gain on the eventual outcome, then I see little opportunity to get more functionally primitive ML hunting on the books. (please don't pick apart my use of the term primitive ok?)

I don't care to use the term traditional as related to public hunting seasons, as I see that more about the way an individual might feel about what they are doing and I don't agree with legislating how folks are supposed to feel.
Not a point to argue, please. I think the regulations need to focus on the functional manner of the implement used to harvest game and nothing more. If folks wish to be "traditional' while they are participating in the activity, great but not everyone should be forced to IMO.

I don't pay taxes in Idaho nor have I ever had the opportunity to hunt there. Although, (much to your disdain I'm sure, so get ready) I may next year as I'm presently looking at a land investment deal there that is expected to close before the end of this year.

I don