Idaho's Definition

[Claude Mathis]

Here is what Idaho has to say about the Muzzleloading Season. For many of us, it exemplifies what the season was originally intended to be - Primitive and historic in nature. Perhaps we can use this as a guideline when presenting our case to other states?
(The italics and bolding are my additions)

Please keep in mind that this forum is for the discussion of the season and how we can preserve it. It's not about bashing a fellow hunter who just bought his first in-line. He and his weapon are not the issue. It's about the laws and what we can do about them.

From the pages of the Idaho Fish and Game 2005

Muzzleloader Technology

Primitive weapons seasons were established, and are maintained, to provide additional recreational opportunity with relatively inefficient weapons. Commission intent of traditional muzzleloader seasons was to maintain the primitive nature of the weapon and the hunt.

Muzzleloading Rifle or Musket

In any hunt, including general any-weapon seasons
and short-range hunts, it is unlawful to pursue or kill big
game animals:

 

[Runner]

Very nice. Apparently the season there is being managed as a separate hunt for the the muzzleloaders. Here in Missouri, the muzzleloader season is an add on late in the year and is managed as a herd management tool, not a special season for less capable weapons. If they allowed single shot centerfires in that season, there would be a run on them for two years or better and it would become almost a requirement for a hunter to own a single shot. Now, the same applies to inlines. In no way is it limited or managed for less capable weapons.

 

[MikeChapin]

Sounds like Idaho is trying to do it right. Wyoming does not have a seperate hunt for muzzleloaders. Most areas do have an archery season but muzzleloaders go out with everyone else. This is not usually a problem except for antelope. It's a little tough to get in close enough after the first day.

I would hope that if Wyoming would have a muzzleloader season they would do it similar to Idaho.

 

[roundball]

If I had led a focus group to come up with a formal description that captured the whole theme of the intent & purpose of traditional/primitive ML seasons, it couldn't have turned out any better than the Idaho writeup...that's it in a nutshell.
Thanks for posting it... :master:

 

[16gauge]

This is what I would like to see for MI muzzleloading season. Does anyone know when Idaho first started thier Muzzleloading season? MI started theirs back in 1975...back then, Muzzleloading = primative....there were no "inlines" except for a handful of custom made guns, and sabots, pellets, 209 ignitions, ect, hadn't been invented yet. Over time, everything was allowed because "it was loaded down the muzzle".

 

[tg]

I do think it is a good sytart but have always felt the sights and projectiles should be of a type that are of an earlier technology, as these are the two items that opened the floodgates for anything and everything. or a mix of the old and new that morphed into the entierly new.

 

[roundball]

I do think it is a good sytart but have always felt the sights and projectiles should be of a type that are of an earlier technology, as these are the two items that opened the floodgates for anything and everything. or a mix of the old and new that morphed into the entierly new.

I hear you...I just think it's great that any state has taken formal steps to clarify this issue at all...saw it as a good model to gain separation of traditional vs. inlines in other states even if just at this level.

This Idaho model strikes me as exactly the kind of example / precedent that could be used by national ML organizations to fan the flames into some other states.

But as tenuous as this ground is, my fear would be if the limitations of what primitive meant are wound up too tight as viewed by state folks who have to decide these issues, additional adoptions by other states might not ever materialize at all.

If the Idaho model could be duplicated in even a few other states it would be a huge beginning to the restoration of the traditional season intent...just my views on the matter

 

[bbassi]

years ago PA had a similar definition of MZ season; flintlock only, open buck horn sights (no peep) and patched RB. From what I've heard they now have an early MZ season too in which they allow any MZ, but the late season is still considered "traditional". Maybe one of the stump jumpers here can clarify it for us. :crackup:

 

[bob1961]

Maybe one of the stump jumpers here can clarify it for us.

if we gotta jump stumps to git our deer then we are stump jumpers :crackup:

PA flintlock season dec 26th to jan 14th....
flintlock ignition, single barreled long gun, .44 caliber or larger, using single projectile only.
iron, open "V" or notch sights only. fiber optic inserts permitted. crossbows permitted, but users must have a muzzleloader stamp.

october antlerless muzzleloader season october 15th to 22nd....
any muzzleloading long gun with flintlock, percussion or in-line ignition, .44 caliber or larger. scope sights permitted, crossbows permitted, but users must have a muzzleloader stamp.

not to bad for now i guess............bob

 

[pennsyltucky]

not to bad for now i guess............bob

not too bad for now? its excellent. a ml hunter in the early season can only take an antlerless(and they have to have a doe tag to hunt in that season)so alot of doe tags are filled before the regular season even starts. that means less pressure and slop shootin in reg season. and if the in-liners want to get a buck with it they only have to wait a few weeks for the reg season.

it is also nice to be able to get into the woods for deer before the rut goes into full swing and carry my ML in much greater peace and quiet. and its just a tad warmer in oct than in dec-jan. ::

the flintlock season here in pa is in no danger of being raided by the scoped pieces of manure any time soon. its not needed for herd control (obviously, because they dropped the deer #'s pretty drastically over recent years with the early season and all the extra doe tags) and pa hunters have a real respect for us flinters. at least all ive hunted with around here. (i hunt the reg season with my hawken)


id be really suprised to see any of our regs change any time soon and i, for one, am quite happy with it

 

Claude, what's next, will they begin to define what type of transportation you can hunt with? How about no atv's, I'm sure none of the trad. guys use those , maybe you MUST use horse and wagon to transport all your gear? :hmm: Does your hunting camp have power and running water, or maybe hot water, should that be excluded? I just find it so IRONIC how traditional some people think they really are. :youcrazy: Very dangerous game yall are playing trying to segregate hunters, I hope it doesn't lead to self impossed lead poisining of the foot. :m2c:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Claude, what's next, will they begin to define what type of transportation you can hunt with? How about no atv's, I'm sure none of the trad. guys use those , maybe you MUST use horse and wagon to transport all your gear? :hmm: Does your hunting camp have power and running water, or maybe hot water, should that be excluded? I just find it so IRONIC how traditional some people think they really are. :youcrazy: Very dangerous game yall are playing trying to segregate hunters, I hope it doesn't lead to self impossed lead poisining of the foot. :m2c:

I honestly believe some people are missing the whole point of this discussion. We are traditionalist muzzleloaders, discussing how we can preserve the "Traditional" nature of the muzzleloading season.

If someone is an in-line enthusiast, I suggest that they go to an in-line site and discuss their own strategy to modernize the season. That is their right and I wish them the best of luck. Ah, Democracy!

It's no different that prohibiting Jet-skis on a lake. The canoe enthusiasts are for prohibiting them and the Jet-Ski people are opposed. The Jet-ski people are saying, "But, we're all 'water-craft' owners, so we need to stick together". That stick together rhetoric is often used by the in-line supporters to try and persuade the Traditionalist into accepting modern firearms in the muzzleloading season.

Each camp should fight for and lobby for what they think the rules should be. That's how we do it in this country.

To answer another posters question, the modern forums are gone because this web site no longer supports modern weapons. We support Tradition and History here - not modern firearms.

From this point forward, personal attacks will result in the posters account being deleted. Disagreements are one thing, but I have no more patience for personal attacks or name calling.

 

I honestly believe some people are missing the whole point of this discussion. We are traditionalist muzzleloaders, discussing how we can preserve the "Traditional" nature of the muzzleloading season.

By whose definition, YOURS? :says:

I honestly feel pretty traditional sitting with my White ML loaded with a BIG ole conical, more so than someone with an Encore, but thats my definition. What if the next def. doesn't fit you because there are some guys that FEEL like they are more trad. than you and want you excluded. Dangerous game I'm telling ya, you should only add to never subtract from, yall are breaking RULE #1 in the fight against the ANTI'S.

 

[tg]

"If the Idaho model could be duplicated in even a few other states it would be a huge beginning to the restoration of the traditional season intent...just my views on the matter "

I agree with that Roundball, I just hope for "more" I think that education about the original type ofguns and nurturing an interest in the PC aspect of things may help build a stronger base of people willing to take that step back, though there is a shortage of entry level equipment out there.... (note new strategy of ignoring and not giving the satisfaction of a response to negative posts.... I think they will go away if not given any attention)

 

[Runner]

DWB, what you fail to understand is this. If we have to go on the way things are going, the risk of helping the anti's is worth it. Open sights, black or a sub, no plastic, open to the weather, max bullet length 1.5 times bore diameter, no 209 primers, and you are welcome in my camp. Some others want a historic action, but I do not demand that. I do desire ballistics to match the traditional guns and loads. If I had to choose between the seasons as they now are with the Ultimate as a legal choice and no season at all, I would have to tune up my fishing gear. That is not a personal attack on anyone. A White with a scope and a big long conical is so far outside the envelope that the auto loading '06's start to look reasonable in the muzzleloader seasons. The discussion is about Traditional Muzzleloading and what parameters to push for in our discussions with the various state agencies. The key idea is to move modern to the modern seasons or at least get it out of the non-modern seasons. It has been said many times now. A ten year old could understand this issue in 10 minutes of examining the choices and reading the specs. The other forums are no longer here because some people refused that reality and continued to argue silly things like how do you go to your hunting site. They finally forced the issue. A choice was made. It was a harsh choice, but I think a correct one. My little flinter is a store bought cheapy and it does not have sight dovetails cut. I can't change to true traditional style sights. I have to get that fixed to carry my own gun and be at peace with myself! I don't think you will find many folks here that will willingly allow you things they think are wrong for themselves. Don't mistake. That is exactly what you are asking. The split did not happen here on this forum. It has been growing and getting worse for some time. That it got out of hand here on this forum now is just a symptom of the problem. Please give it up and go back to HA with the White talk. If you wish to discuss the Doc's double barrel flinter, this is the place. If you want to discuss his latest experiments with smokeless powder, it is not. It really is not that hard to understand.

 

[Claude Mathis]

DWB said:

By whose definition, YOURS?

What if the next def. doesn't fit you because there are some guys that FEEL like they are more trad. than you and want you excluded.

Actually, I'm siting the State of Idaho's definition, but you don't seem to be interested in the subject of this thread. It's obvious what your motivation is.

But, to answer your question, I would say that they have a right to their opinion and they should work toward their goals, as I am toward mine. One of the reasons we vote in this country is because we have differing opinions.

Let me try to explain why this particular forum is here...

I invited people in to talk about how we can keep the muzzleloading season "traditional", in the way we envision it. That is, with traditional weapons and in the style of our forefathers.

If someone drops in and doesn't like what we're talking about - they should simply leave and stay out of the conversation. We aren't here to argue with you about your in-line, but rather discuss how we can maintain the traditional aspect that the season was originally based on.

I don't know how to make this more clear.

My best suggestion for you would be for you to find a web site that caters to your views. Perhaps there is an in-line site that is promoting modern weapons during the muzzleloading season? You have a right to do that. I wish you the best. No hard feelings. Good bye.

 

Not relevant to this discussion.

 

ok sooo you ask what to do , i posted the answer to what has happened here in idaho and why , so why delet my post claude ?

 

[Claude Mathis]

ok sooo you ask what to do , i posted the answer to what has happened here in idaho and why , so why delet my post claude ?

My apologies. Your post was accidentally deleted because the system saw it as a reply to a member that is no longer with us.

It was not intentional and if you could repost the info that would be great.

Sorry.

 

ok About Idaho and how our seasons started .

back in the early 1970's a group of us started pushing for season . After a few years we were given 2 units that hold today up in the Clearwater region and muzzleloaders aloud in short range weapons units .
Those season were late in the years when we have heavy and deep snow and were based on traditional weapons