How much does 90 grains FFF weigh?

[Zonie]

I'd even go so far as to say I bet there are 7000 grains in a pound of rice! :grin:

(I sure hope no one gets out a box of rice and counts the grains in one pound of it.
If they do they'll be back telling me I was wrong.) :rotf:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Grains by volume is exactly the same as grains by weight.

No it isn't . . . get out your volumetric measure and your weight scale and try it. There may be some volumes of a certain granulation that weigh the same as the volume, but they will be flukes and not the norm.

This is partly a matter of what accuracy and precision you are discussing, and partly a matter of terminology. There is and was no unit of volume called a grain. "90 grains" of powder weighs exactly 90 grains - it's a measure of weight. What any powder measure throws depends on how it was calibrated, to use the convenience of a volumetric measure to dispense approximately the specified weight of powder. This is taking advantage of the relative insensitivity of black powder to small differences in charge, and this was and is precise enough and accurate enough for many purposes. Back in the day, powder charges were only specified to a precision of 1/4dr - that's a hair under 7 grains. Differences of less than this were thus not significant. For some it was/is significant, and those individuals had/have to recalibrate their measures against the actual weight of the powders they are using with their measuring technique.

As you know, powder densities vary somewhat with granulation, lot, and manufacturer, but they all average close to the density of water, at least since the second quarter of the 19th century. Measuring technique (as-poured or tapped to settle & topped up, and rounded or struck off level) can induce at least as much variation as the type of powder. I've read that back in the days when this stuff was just called "gun powder" and measuring it was a common and serious matter, a manufacturer might calibrate a measure for a particular brand and granulation of powder AND measuring technique, or they might use an average density for a variety of powders. Nowadays, it's an uncommon matter of interest only to a rather small number of hobbyists. I've gotten the impression that some of the better modern powder measures are calibrated reasonably accurately to the weight of water as a convenient but somewhat arbitrary "average" powder density. On the other hand, some modern measures are about as accurate as an Indian-made wall-hanger-grade replica musket. There are a lot of p!ss-poorly calibrated powder measures that aren't even close to what they are marked with any combination of powder and technique.

Regards,
Joel

 

[TFoley]

I vote this the best post on this subject so far.
To tell the truth, I can't see how it might be improved upon.

tac

 

[TFoley]

The 'king' was a real king - Henry III. Read history - there was nothing funny about HIM.

tac

 

[longcruise]

Historicaly I believe the rifles were made and a measure for the rifle was given with the gun, I suspect that a gun builder had a master or set of masters ( different sizes for differnt cals) and made copys by the volume and not the weight

At the risk of being called a speculative historian, I'm going to agree on that assessment. based on some of the measures associated with older rifles, it also seems that many measures were rather small compared to what we load today. Some think that on occasion they may have double charged for heavier loads. Seems logical.

What we might take from all that is that first off, the gunmaker probably did not go out and test for the most accurate load for each rifle and then make a measure to fit it. He had a standard sized measure for each gauge and left it at that. If the buyer went ahead and used that measure without he probably got satisfactory results.

 

[paulvallandigham]

7000 grains to the pound. 437.5 grains to the ounce. 27.34 grains to the DRAM( 1/16 of an ounce.) :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

90 grains of FFFg powder weighs ---- 90 grains! By weight. Grain is a measurement of weight, NOT a description of kernels, or granules of a particular powder. Because of the nature of black powder, and the lack of true Scales that could be used in the field, BP was measured with VOLUME measures- not scales.

Yes, you do get different Volume measurements if your measure( pipe, antler, wood) is 3/8" in diameter, vs. 1/2" or 3/4", etc. in diameter. Change the actual diameter of each granule put in the measure, and you raise or lower the actual Weight of the amount of powder that particular volume measure can hold.

Its similar to filling a quart jar with marbles. You can say that is a Quarter of marbles( by volume)and the jar will have a certain weight.

But, then, you can pour lead shot pellets- say #8 shot, and the jar will contain more, and weigh more, as the smaller shot will fill in the gaps between the larger marbles.

If you then pour fine sand down into that same quart jar and vibrate the jar, the quart jar of marble and shot will take on the fine sand, which fills in the even finer holes and gaps between the shot pellets. The Quarter jar will weigh more.

But, lest you think you have a full Quart jar, you can now pour water into that same jar filled with marbles, shot pellets, and sane, and you will be able to add more weight to the volume of that jar.

Change that water to liquid Mercury, and the jar may be difficult to pick up! :shocked2: :blah: :rotf: :rotf: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Billnpatti]

Let's see now......uh.....90 grains of feathers? Well.......feathers weigh less than lead and lead weighs more than air so........I'd say that 90 grains of feathers would weigh.....uh.... 0.206 ounces. :haha:

Okay, here's one for you: If it takes a hen and a half a day and a half to lay an egg and a half , how long would it take a grasshopper with a wooden leg to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle? :rotf:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Trick question. There are no bones in ice cream.

 

[roundball]

I'm glad this has finally been clarified at all levels.
:grin:

I have no idea what the actual weight is of a Goex powder charge thrown from an adjustable brass measure with T/C's name on it that I bought about 20 years ago.
Its supposedly rated from 50-120 units of something and I know my MLs do great when I "click it up" 4-5 times and charge them with that much powder.
So to simplify future powder discussions, when asked I'll just say I use "4 clicks of powder"...that'll help streamline the discussion.


(now all this has made me want to go weigh the powder that 4 clicks throws...and my Wife happens to have an electronic/digital scale she uses with her soap making hobby... :wink: )

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've got the identical measure and it hovers right around true with FFg. Of the five factory measures I own that one was closest. I usually keep a homespun measure on my horn and that one is in my shooting bag as a back-up.

 

[roundball]

With odds and ends included in all the buying & selling over the years I think I've actually accumulated 4-5 of them.
Will scale check them all and see what kind of quality control exists among the 5 of them...knowing T/C I'll bet lunch they'll all be darn near on the money.

As an aside, I have their smaller pistol size version that's 20-40grns, I use it to premeasure 40grn charges for the .40cal...might as well see what it throws at the same time.
Interesting they didn't make it 20-45 or 50 in case somebody wanted to throw 45grns :hmm:

 

[longcruise]

Roundball, I'm guessing that all of your TC measures will be very close to each other but that they will not match perfectly. I have one of those old TC "click" measures but have not used it in 25 years except to cover the spout of my powder can when shooting from the bench.

Now, if memory serves, you shoot 3f goex, no?

Methinks your clicker when set on 90 will throw about 95.5 grains by weight and the same setting 97 grains if you tap the measure. Just guessin. :thumbsup:

 

[hanshi]

No, but I can tell you that 100 pounds of lead weighs more than 100 pounds of cotton. :rotf: :rotf:

 

[hanshi]

The 'king' was a real king - Henry III. Read history - there was nothing funny about HIM.

tac

Yeah, but he wouldn't get in the ring with ME! :blah:

 

[hanshi]

I've seen them do it in just over 15 minutes. :rotf:

 

[roundball]

I use 3F in most everything but since I got a case of 2F in 2009, I went ahead and zeroed the .58 & .62cal PRB deer loads with 2F.
Now that they're sighted in, at a couple shots a year, that case should last about a century LOL

I'll weigh both granulations and file it...

 

[Zonie]

...So to simplify future powder discussions, when asked I'll just say I use "4 clicks of powder"...that'll help streamline the discussion...

Now your really confusing things!

Everybody knows a "click" is a measurement of distance! as in, "It's 3 clicks to the next village."
:rotf:

 

[runnin lead]

I was amazed at the difference.
Swiss 1 1/2 f 62 gr
KIK 3f 53 gr
same volume, same setting Lyman 55 BP measure
9 gr difference by weight at the same volume

 

[paulvallandigham]

Swiss uses a smaller hole diameter screen for sizing their powders, compared to Goex. That is why you get more powder in the same volume measure, than you do using Goex, and it also happens to explain most of the reasons why you get MORE VELOCITY from the same volume of Swiss powder, compared to Goex.

Since powder granules burn from the outside in, a smaller granule burns faster, and it takes MORE granules to occupy the same VOLUME. The more powder to burn in a given space, and the smaller each granule of powder it is, the more gas produced, and the more velocity will be generated.

The other reason that Swiss powder burns hotter is because their percentage of Potassium Nitrate in the powder is HIGHER than used here in Goex. PN is the chemical that actually burnsd in the powder, so the more PN used, the hotter and faster the powder burns. The Carbon is used as a "sponge" to hold the PN, while the sulfur is added to control the rate of burning, so you don't get just an explosion when the PN is ignited. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Here's a fascinating website from a man (who is Swiss) and worked for the Swiss Institute of Technology. His claim is that the sulphur content helps control the ignition point and he demonstrated this by measuring the energy output and ignition point when changing one component at a time.

So it appears the sole purpose of sulfur in a black powder mixture is the reduction of the ignition temperature! Note: A good priming powder has allways a high sulfur concentration.

[Google "Ulrich Bretscher" - his site is blocked here . . . and please don't discuss recipe specifics!}