You wonder with the above information, how many El-Queada ( spelling who cares) have fallen from errant shots fired into the air.
I'm not sure what kind of muzzle loaders they used.
Fred
I'm not sure what kind of muzzle loaders they used.
Fred
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How far can a ball travel?
- Thread starter Skychief
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54ball
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It does not work that way......
It's usually the innocent.
15 years or so ago a 2 year old toddler was killed by a .22 LR bullet. He was in a car seat, the bullet came though the window and hit him in the head. The vehicle was traveling a rural interstate during the fall of t he year.
Who knows where that one came from?
It's usually the innocent.
15 years or so ago a 2 year old toddler was killed by a .22 LR bullet. He was in a car seat, the bullet came though the window and hit him in the head. The vehicle was traveling a rural interstate during the fall of t he year.
Who knows where that one came from?
54ball
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Hey Tenngun,
Always a pleasure......
That 70 degrees comes from deck guns on fire engines ( master streams).
45 provides good concentration and pretty good reach. But to get really get out there, 70 or so degrees will provide greater reach with the same pressure but the concentration will be less.
How it works......,
At 45Ӣ the steam has not reached it's maximum altitude for extreme distance. At 70Ӣ the stream reaches a much higher altitude and along with forward momentum it will reach further than 45Ӣ.
Elevate more than 70-72Ӣ it starts falling short quickly.
Always a pleasure......
That 70 degrees comes from deck guns on fire engines ( master streams).
45 provides good concentration and pretty good reach. But to get really get out there, 70 or so degrees will provide greater reach with the same pressure but the concentration will be less.
How it works......,
At 45Ӣ the steam has not reached it's maximum altitude for extreme distance. At 70Ӣ the stream reaches a much higher altitude and along with forward momentum it will reach further than 45Ӣ.
Elevate more than 70-72Ӣ it starts falling short quickly.
54ball said:
As Skychief stated , he ask about a round ball.
I made the statement because I thought I remembered the use of a non Traditional weapon in the Amish girls death. :idunno:
My point being that a modern Muzzleloader ( possiblely loaded with 150 grns ) shooting a bullet would travel farther than a round ball would.
longcruise
70 Cal.
43* is the magic number!
One thing is really sure, cars are very very dangerous! :hmm:
B.
B.
smoothshooter
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Must have been an elongated bullet fired from an in-line rifle.
Or an elongated bullet fired from a traditional ML rifle.
Either way, had to be a bullet that was longer than it was wide.
Those are the kind of muzzleloading bullets 99.5% of the hunting and shooting public use.
No way a ball is going that far.
Or an elongated bullet fired from a traditional ML rifle.
Either way, had to be a bullet that was longer than it was wide.
Those are the kind of muzzleloading bullets 99.5% of the hunting and shooting public use.
No way a ball is going that far.
smoothshooter
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Hour buddy needs to back his load off to about 30 to 40 brains if he is going to be shooting at targets in trees.
There's something to be said for being familiar with your main heavy hunting load, but there are other ways under safer conditions for that.
For me personally, if I shot more squirrels than deer, the squirrel load would be my standard load, not the deer load.
I would just bump my load up some for the one ot two shots needed for the larger game.
There's something to be said for being familiar with your main heavy hunting load, but there are other ways under safer conditions for that.
For me personally, if I shot more squirrels than deer, the squirrel load would be my standard load, not the deer load.
I would just bump my load up some for the one ot two shots needed for the larger game.
The PROBLEM with the story, is that the shooter claimed he discharged his rifle while beginning his cleaning procedure, and he fired it into the air. THEN it struck the girl, who's body continued to ride in the carriage, until it drew near to her home, and her corpse fell from the vehicle.
So WHY would a person think when she was found soooo far away (note she was hit 1.5 miles away, she was found even further away) that he was responsible ???. That his shot to discharge his rifle was the same one that had struck the girl? Then he comes forward, and admits he fired into the air after he was done hunting. That's 2640 yards away..., 2.6x the distance figured by Spence. Even if this jerk had maxed out the load, it has to be almost 2x the distance. So..., :bull:
I think he missed a deer, and was a lot closer to the location where the young woman was hit, and he came up with the story to facilitate what he got..., a misdemeanor conviction. You've got a guy who confessed and a ballistic match, so why look at angle of impact and do any further testing to see if his story checks out. "The neighbors heard a shot" ..., big freakin' deal. I've been an LEO for 28 years, and I've worked homicides and lots of shootings from .22's to rifles. His story stinks. I think he was poaching on property less than 1000 yards of the impact scene. Went home, because he knew what had happened, thought about it, realized he needed a cover story, and came forward.
LD
If he hit her shooting at a deer the wound would have been in the side of the head (unless he was shooting at Rudolf or Pranser). If he did shoot in the air it would have been in the top of the skull IMHO. Not a ME but :idunno:
Still...how do they know where she was when she was actually hit? If 1.5 miles and the guy shoots PRB worth a look into by a competent defense atty.
Still...how do they know where she was when she was actually hit? If 1.5 miles and the guy shoots PRB worth a look into by a competent defense atty.
Many Klatch
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Spence, I'd always understood that the maximum range for a shoulder fired roundball was about 800 yards. I have shot at and hit targets at 400 meters with a flintlock roundball and at that time I was probably holding at about 25 to 30 degrees above the target.
Herb
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From the book "A Treatise on the Rifle, Musket, Pistol, and Fowling piece: embracing Projectiles and sharp-shooting:" by N. Bosworth, 1846: 'It has been ascertained, that a musket-ball of one ounce (437 grains, .685 inch in diameter, about 14 1/2 gauge, HGT), possessing a velocity of sixteen hundred feet per second, at the angle of forty-five degrees, in vacuo (in a vacuum, HGT) would range seventeen miles; whereas, such a ball in atmospheric air, would range not over three quarters of a mile.'
'One of the principal changes in modern gunnery, from the old practice, is in the degree of elevation to effect the greatest range. According to the former parabolic theory, all projectiles were said to range farthest, at an angle of forty-five degrees. This has been found to be a mistake. It is still practiced, however, with large shells, and slow velocities; but with smaller shells, and greater velocities, an angle of about thirty degrees is found to range furthest; and with guns, at a still lower angle, according to the increased specific gravity of the ball, and an increase of velocity, until we come down to the ordinary rifle with leaden balls, when the greatest range is found to be at an angle of about twenty-five degrees. The greater the specific gravity of the ball, and the greater the velocity, the lower must be the elevation to produce the greatest range. These changes of elevation date their origin at the siege of Cadiz. After the great range of Napoleon at that place, the English went through a rigid experiment, in respect to elevation and ranges, which resulted in the discovery, that for the higher velocities, a lower angle of elevation would give the greater range.'
'The nearest point of Cadiz to the French batteries was distant forty-two hundred yards; but it became an object to annoy the heart of the city, which was six thousand yards from the French works. For this purpose, Napoleon ordered a peculiar kind of brass howitzer to be cast at Seville, to throw shells of eleven inches in diameter. The specific gravity of the shells was considerably increased by nearly filling it with lead, leaving a small space to be filled with fulminating silver, to explode the shell. (He calculated the weight of the ball to be 218 pounds, HGT). This howitzer, with an elevation of thirty degrees, and a charge of thirty pounds of powder, accomplished the range of six thousand yards!! being three miles, seven hundred and twenty yards!!!'
'Napoleon was deeply versed in physical science, and capable of the most exact appliances of what constitutes proportion.'
'One of the principal changes in modern gunnery, from the old practice, is in the degree of elevation to effect the greatest range. According to the former parabolic theory, all projectiles were said to range farthest, at an angle of forty-five degrees. This has been found to be a mistake. It is still practiced, however, with large shells, and slow velocities; but with smaller shells, and greater velocities, an angle of about thirty degrees is found to range furthest; and with guns, at a still lower angle, according to the increased specific gravity of the ball, and an increase of velocity, until we come down to the ordinary rifle with leaden balls, when the greatest range is found to be at an angle of about twenty-five degrees. The greater the specific gravity of the ball, and the greater the velocity, the lower must be the elevation to produce the greatest range. These changes of elevation date their origin at the siege of Cadiz. After the great range of Napoleon at that place, the English went through a rigid experiment, in respect to elevation and ranges, which resulted in the discovery, that for the higher velocities, a lower angle of elevation would give the greater range.'
'The nearest point of Cadiz to the French batteries was distant forty-two hundred yards; but it became an object to annoy the heart of the city, which was six thousand yards from the French works. For this purpose, Napoleon ordered a peculiar kind of brass howitzer to be cast at Seville, to throw shells of eleven inches in diameter. The specific gravity of the shells was considerably increased by nearly filling it with lead, leaving a small space to be filled with fulminating silver, to explode the shell. (He calculated the weight of the ball to be 218 pounds, HGT). This howitzer, with an elevation of thirty degrees, and a charge of thirty pounds of powder, accomplished the range of six thousand yards!! being three miles, seven hundred and twenty yards!!!'
'Napoleon was deeply versed in physical science, and capable of the most exact appliances of what constitutes proportion.'
I myself have not done any maximum range of bullets testing, however, I remembered reading about such testing in one of my NRA books. Took a few minutes to locate the 'NRA Firearms Fact Book 3rd Edition' (isn't everything online now a days?), and found some interesting bits of information in the Ballistic section where there is a discussion and chart on the Maximum Range of Bullets.
While there is nothing specific to muzzleloaders and patched round balls, there are some things to learn. A 53.8gr 00 buck (think 33 dia RB) with a muzzle velocity of 1350fps has a max range at sea level of 1830 ft or 610 yards. A 437gr 12 ga slug with a MV of 1560fps has a max range of 2450 ft or 816 yards. A 230gr 45 caliber bullet at 855fps can travel 1467 yards while a 240gr 44 caliber bullet at 1390fps could travel 2500 yards. For long range reference, a 3006 180gr boattail bullet with a MV of 2700fps has a max range of 17,000 ft or 5667 yards (a little over 3.2 miles). These numbers are at sea level. Book noted that at 12,000 ft of elevation distances could increase about 38% for most bullets.
From personal experience, have found one of the beauties of muzzleloaders is the option to load them down based on the situation. Had a buddy with is two young sons over a while back. He had them pretty cranked up about my muzzleloaders - no one in their family shoots and he is trying to get the boys interested in something other than 'black rifles' - and he wanted me to show them a few muzzleloaders. Neither had shot anything, not even a BB gun. Let them make some sparks with a flintlock. And of course they wanted to know when they could shoot one. Suggested we step out back. Using the smaller cups from a LEE Measuring Kit (0.50CC or 8grs of FFF for the 32 and 0.70CC or 11.1grs for the 45) had these kids in complete awe. Remember, neither had shot any type of gun before, but within half a dozen shots or so had to reduce the target size at 25 yards from milk jugs to cans to those yellow foam golf balls. By the time they got to a dozen or so shots they were not missing the yellow foam golf balls. Not sure about velocity or how much whack these light loads have, but little doubt they would ruin any squirrel's day.
Suggest your buddy figure out a squirrel load for his 45.
While there is nothing specific to muzzleloaders and patched round balls, there are some things to learn. A 53.8gr 00 buck (think 33 dia RB) with a muzzle velocity of 1350fps has a max range at sea level of 1830 ft or 610 yards. A 437gr 12 ga slug with a MV of 1560fps has a max range of 2450 ft or 816 yards. A 230gr 45 caliber bullet at 855fps can travel 1467 yards while a 240gr 44 caliber bullet at 1390fps could travel 2500 yards. For long range reference, a 3006 180gr boattail bullet with a MV of 2700fps has a max range of 17,000 ft or 5667 yards (a little over 3.2 miles). These numbers are at sea level. Book noted that at 12,000 ft of elevation distances could increase about 38% for most bullets.
From personal experience, have found one of the beauties of muzzleloaders is the option to load them down based on the situation. Had a buddy with is two young sons over a while back. He had them pretty cranked up about my muzzleloaders - no one in their family shoots and he is trying to get the boys interested in something other than 'black rifles' - and he wanted me to show them a few muzzleloaders. Neither had shot anything, not even a BB gun. Let them make some sparks with a flintlock. And of course they wanted to know when they could shoot one. Suggested we step out back. Using the smaller cups from a LEE Measuring Kit (0.50CC or 8grs of FFF for the 32 and 0.70CC or 11.1grs for the 45) had these kids in complete awe. Remember, neither had shot any type of gun before, but within half a dozen shots or so had to reduce the target size at 25 yards from milk jugs to cans to those yellow foam golf balls. By the time they got to a dozen or so shots they were not missing the yellow foam golf balls. Not sure about velocity or how much whack these light loads have, but little doubt they would ruin any squirrel's day.
Suggest your buddy figure out a squirrel load for his 45.
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longcruise
70 Cal.
I have never been comfortable shooting at anything in a tree with any kind of rifle.
54ball
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Dave I had a bigger post...worked on it a while...deleted most of it so these comments are not necessarily directed to you.
It must be an unmentionable.
A roundball knows better.
I'll make this bold statement.....
I have zero doubt that a 45 caliber rifle with 70 grains of powder and a patched round ball is lethal at a mile and a half. I have no doubt that it's capable.Even if it can't I'll treat it like it can.
In 1992 the Billy Dixon shot was duplicated on an artillery range.
Conical? Yes
But still.
I would love to load up the long rifle and go blasting tree tops like it was 1780. But it's not 1780. Whats over the next ridge? where's my buddy?....The River....Road....Farm....Neighborhood is a mile away....So I need to take care.
It does not matter if it's a flintlock or bazooka...know whats beyond.
A hunting arm has great power and that requires great responsibility.
I don't care about winning the argument, the sake of the hobby and all that baloney. What I do care about is people. I don't want any of my friends hurt. I don't want any of my friends to hurt anybody.
Skychief,
One last thought about squirrel hunting with rifles.
Be super careful. Wood is a poor back stop. There is some risk of ricochets especially with lighter loads, glancing blows or spent loads bouncing in unpredictable directions. So mind how close you guys are.
You are all grown men. Be safe, be careful and have a good time.
It must be an unmentionable.
A roundball knows better.
I'll make this bold statement.....
I have zero doubt that a 45 caliber rifle with 70 grains of powder and a patched round ball is lethal at a mile and a half. I have no doubt that it's capable.Even if it can't I'll treat it like it can.
In 1992 the Billy Dixon shot was duplicated on an artillery range.
BPCR? Yes
Conical? Yes
But still.
I would love to load up the long rifle and go blasting tree tops like it was 1780. But it's not 1780. Whats over the next ridge? where's my buddy?....The River....Road....Farm....Neighborhood is a mile away....So I need to take care.
It does not matter if it's a flintlock or bazooka...know whats beyond.
A hunting arm has great power and that requires great responsibility.
I don't care about winning the argument, the sake of the hobby and all that baloney. What I do care about is people. I don't want any of my friends hurt. I don't want any of my friends to hurt anybody.
Skychief,
One last thought about squirrel hunting with rifles.
Be super careful. Wood is a poor back stop. There is some risk of ricochets especially with lighter loads, glancing blows or spent loads bouncing in unpredictable directions. So mind how close you guys are.
You are all grown men. Be safe, be careful and have a good time.
Skychief
69 Cal.
Okay. I will be careful.
:haha:
to: everyone in general........
sorry for this OT question, but
WHY would someone NOT trying to poach a deer use their deer load for squirrel ?
(i'm talking about the small game season open before deer season)
sorry for this OT question, but
WHY would someone NOT trying to poach a deer use their deer load for squirrel ?
(i'm talking about the small game season open before deer season)
Big squirrels!
You're assuming on level ground.
LOOK I'm not saying that he couldn't have launched his projectile that far...,
WHAT SMELLS to me is what you all have proven..., you guys are scholars and have brought forth esoteric information of extremely long shots with a muzzle loader AND a conical bullet.
Would this fellow have known that?
:hmm:
What made me suspicious is WHY does a fellow who was likely to have average knowledge of firearms, and average expectations of how far the bullet may travel (he has to take a hunter safety course as part of his sentence; ergo he hasn't had that training yet) even suspect that his discharging of his rifle to begin cleaning had gone that far and killed that person? So he then comes forward. My conclusion, he was a lot closer to her when he fired, so he had some indication of what he'd done.
Hey I stopped barking squirrels with my .54 years ago since the branches wouldn't stop the ball and I would be shooting upwards. I'm not advocating firing into the sky or ignoring directions of muzzle discharge. When I unload by firing it's into a specific oak stump..., a) I know where the shot has gone, and b) my Scottish genes like that I can recover the ball and recast it later.
LD
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