Hide or skin for a T.C. Albert pouch

[HPS]

Thinking about building a pouch using one of T.C Albert’s hunting pouch patterns from his book but instead of 3 - 4 oz. vegetable tanned tooling leather using deerskin in the range of 2.5 to 3 oz. I’m new at this and wondering if anyone would care to advise or give me their thoughts.

Thanks.

 

[necchi]

Buckskin stretches,
But it'll stretch more in one direction then the other,,
If you have a square, try pulling on the sides,, then pull from top an bottom,,
You'll see a difference,, it's best to have all the pieces lined up with the same stretch.
Does that make sense?

 

[tenngun]

in my experience deer skin tends to be too soft for shooting pouches, and doesn't hold the shape well. Many old pouches seem to have been cattle leather. I have seen pouches made from deer and reinforced with rawhide, but cant vouch for how old that is. Indian made bags were often parfleach.

 

[HPS]

Thanks gents. You’ve made good points and that was what I was looking for. In re-reading the first part of Mr. Albert’s book last night and leaning to recreating an early pouch it would be best for me to follow he’s suggestions. It should then be easier for me to apply any of his techniques that I may wish to follow. Since I will buy my leather through mail order, don’t know of any leather dealers within reasonable driving distance, I’ll go with someone like Tandy’s online to get my supply. If I follow T.C.’s recommendations I’ll then have enough leather to make 4 or 5 pouches. Maybe by the end of that I’ll have learned to make a reasonable replica and even add a few of my own innovations like a short starter holder on the shoulder strap, etc.

Since just getting started in ML and now with my own GPR I’ve noticed my attention turning to trying to make some of my own accoutrements, like pouch, possibles and RB bags. Maybe even a belt bag for holding my strip patch material”¦”¦? All aspects are becoming interesting and enjoyable even for a green horn as young as I am. :grin:

Thanks again gents for your input.

 

[MSW]

just by way of throwing in my two cents worth, you might want to consider using a deerskin for the front flap...

:stir: :stir: :stir:

free advice, and doubtless worth every penny!

 

[Patocazador]

Tandy has sales flyers 2-4x/yr. They usually have shoulders on sale at a reduced cost. This is about the thickest/toughest part of the hide and works well for a ball pouch.
I made a very simple one from a couple of scraps from one of the shoulders.

 

[Billnpatti]

I have used commercially tanned deer hide to make several items such as ball bags and a possibles bag. It was obvious from the get go that the deer hide alone would not hold its shape so I lined my projects with light weight canvas. I would cut pieces of canvas to the same shape and size as the pieces of deer hide. I would then run a very light bead of glue around the edge of the deer hide and glue the canvas to the deer hide (only at the edges). I would then stitch the pieces together so that the canvas was inside the bag. Only deerskin was visible on the finished project. When I made my deerskin possibles bag, I used blue striped mattress ticking as the liner because it would be seen when the bag was opened. These cloth linings gave the needed shape to the projects and kept them from stretching out of shape. The shoulder strap of my possibles bag certainly had to have a cloth backing or it would probably have stretched out to where it may have eventually drug the ground in which case I would have had to add a set of wheels like on suitcases. :haha:

 

[Rifleman1776]

All the other posters are correct. But, a factor often ignored is that 'back in the day' folks used what they had to do a job. Unlikely scraps of leather were discarded because they might stretch into funny shapes. If ye want yer accessories to look exactly like the next guys, go modern and buy Uncle Mike's stuff. :td:
Make yer pouch and post proud pics when finished. Then use and let it acquire it's own personality with time. I ain't seen the 'stretch police' around these parts for a long time. :wink:

 

[BrownBear]

All good points about soft, made worse the minute it gets wet.

I've kinda studied on using deer or some other soft leather for a long time. I hunt in thick noisy brush much of the time, and hard leather can make a heck of a POP when brush slaps it. Sound like fingernails on a chalk board when it scrapes across hard leather too. Just the way of brush, but you and the rest of your gear can be quiet as a mouse while your bag is a percussion specialist.

Deer, elk, and the Deertanned cowhide Tandy used to sell are all quiet, but saggy when wet or packing a load. Tried lining a bag with 2-3 oz tooling leather, but it only turned out "right" when I glued the two leathers together before sewing. Lotta fluff and bother. Ended up using hair-on hide for the flap on a veg tanned bag. Solution found.

 

[HPS]

Many thanks to you all for your input. I appreciate it. :thumbsup: Also enjoyed the humor. I'm learning that ML folks are not only knowledgeable but fun too.

 

[Jaeger]

Hey, Splint....have to agree with what the others said about deer hide. I just finished making my first pouch using TC Alberts' book for my info and pattern. I used elk hide which is kind of soft and flexible. Let's just say that I wouldn't want it any MORE soft and flexible than it is.I'm happy with what I made and it looks good, but I'm going to try cowhide on my next pouch.

 

[HPS]

Thanks for your post. I ordered an Oak-Leaf Tooling Side, 3 to 4 oz., yesterday along with buckles and some spools of linen thread. My thought at this time is to follow T.C. Albert's North Hampton pouch instructions with the exception of the pattern on the front flap, but we'll see. Since the order is in for the materials I'll start working on making patterns to use when the leather arrives.

I found my hand sewing tools that I had from many years ago, and I mean many, that I used putting together some small kits, belts, etc. I'm really looking forward to this. Maybe I'll start a thread of the project where I can ask questions and show my progress.

 

[Pete G]

It is never a mistake to order too much leather. You will find many ways to use it up once you start down this path. Get a book, Madison Grant's is good, so you will know what original pouches looked like. Stay away from a lot of the buckskinner stuff from back in the 70's.

 

[HPS]

Thanks Pete for pointing me at Mr. Grant's book. I see my favorite supplier has it at a reasonable price.

Just returned from the range for more sight-in with the GPR and had an e-mail informing me my leather and other items have been shipped. I'm going to be busy. Love it.

Thanks again. :thumbsup:

 

[Artificer]

Some thoughts on leather for hunting pouches.

I think I ought to start by saying I’m not trying to say any leather is “wrong” to use for a pouch as far as HC/PC, as long as that leather could come from either an animal that could be taken in the American Colonies (especially in or near the colony your persona comes from) OR a leather that was imported such as many, MANY cow leather tanned hides coming from Mexico/Spanish Territory as well as English Leathers during the period.

This paragraph may get me in trouble, so please understand I am speculating here. I think that in the 18th century, unless a deer hide was the only leather available when a person needed to make a pouch, that some other leather would have been chosen. The reason I think this is because of the great VALUE that deer skins had over other skins. The main reason the Long Hunters went out was for deer skins that were in such great demand back East and in England and the Continent to make buckskin breeches. During most of the 18th century, buckskin breeches were in high demand for tradesman the way blue jeans are used today. Towards the end the 18th and early 19th century, buckskin breeches also became a fashion statement for English Country Gentlemen. No other skin (that was not a fur bearing skin) was as highly valued for trade as a deer skin.

One leather that I have to admit I also have not used for a hunting pouch is pig skin. The skin from an old Boar or Sow pig that was raised by being left loose in the woods until close to the time for butchering, as was common in the 18th century, was almost as thick and tough as cowhide. Even some of the poorer folks on the frontier could afford to keep pigs, as they reproduce rapidly and didn’t cost much to fatten and the meat could be cured for long periods. They did not waste hides in the 18th century and this is perhaps a leather to be investigated more for hunting pouches because it may have been less valuable and more common for use than deer skins?

Many of us in the Eastern states seem to forget that both Eastern Elk and Eastern or Woods Bison was also available for leather on the frontier. Folks who have used buffalo leather say it is a great leather for hunting pouches. I have used Elk Skins for moccasins and some other things, but most of what I have run across is a little too soft for a hunting pouch unless the hair is left on.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

Good speculation Gus, and a fruitful line of thinking. Haven't seen enough original pouches to say one way or another, but I have made bags from assorted leathers.

As you observe, elk is about as soft as deer, though thicker. Buffalo is firmer than elk, and thicker yet. That I've worked with has temper not as hard as veg tanned cow, however.

The pig I've worked with is the thinnest of all, and pretty fragile. Doesn't mean there aren't other weights, tempers and tans, but I'm not acquainted with them.

Lots of other leathers around back then too- horse, sheep, bear, dog, goat, even moose up north. Some common, some not, but available in places.

I guess the question is, if these were available to some degree and used for bags, would they have showed up among the bags surviving today?

 

[Artificer]

Brown Bear,

First, thanks for the kind words.

Your mention of the term “temper” for leather is interesting to me. I was not formally trained in leather work, though I have learned from professionals. Is that a professional’s term, I.E. “Temper?” If there is such a scale for leathers I would be VERY interested in learning more about it. I am familiar with how leather from different areas of a cow hide are best suited for different jobs.

I have been informed that full thickness pig skin has been used for the seats of horse saddles and other uses where it would have needed to have retained temper. Like you, I have rarely found it in anything other than split down into a much thinner leather. I think a full thickness pig skin might/would have made a good hunting pouch, though.

I had not thought about using horse hide till your post. However, in the 80’s I came across a horsehide tanned with the hair on that was thick enough and had enough temper it may or even probably would have made a good shooting pouch. I used the hide as a ground cloth for a lot of years and normally did not tell people what skin it was as people got a little upset when I told them it was horse hide.

As to other leathers being used in the 18th century, we only have a tiny amount of original hunting pouches that can be documented to the 18th century. So I’m not sure just how much we can take from that as any kind of a general rule?

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

Yeah, "temper" is a technical term. Here and here are a couple of descriptions, though both are pretty similar, but there's lots of other interesting stuff there.

Can't remember where, but I've run across horse leather for sale several times. Just googled "horse leather for sale" and it looks like there's more of it around than I realized.

Neat stuff, but as you say, better that most folks don't know what it is. Still my ambition to build some bags out of it, but I haven't shelled out for any yet. Might be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I also wonder if the experts looking at old bags would know the difference between horse and cow. The hide I handled looked real similar. I have to guess it was pretty common back in the day.

 

[Artificer]

I just remembered that back in the late 90's, one of the top holster makers for concealed and carry holsters went to using horse hide as he believed it superior to cowhide. Now if I can only remember which one it was. Grin.

Anyway, I can't see them not using horse hide if they had it available.
Gus

 

[Brokennock]

Horse hide (not sure what tanning method) is very popular with high end custom concealment holster makers. Seems you can get a stiffer more shape retaining holster from a thinner piece of leather.
What about mixing different leathers for different bag parts. I.e. something stiff and thick for the gusset, something pliable but not stretchy for the back and front, and something thick but soft for the flap?