Help with TC Hawken flintlock hammer

[dinorocks]

Thanks for reading! My background is primitive archery ("bowyer") which evolved to attending rendezvous and now "shooting" flintlock. I started with a TC Hawken percussion cap and bought a TC Hawken flintlock the other year...I didn't want to spend big bucks right out of the gate. I love "shooting" the rifle but need to put the word shoot in parentheses as I'm not very successful getting the rifle to fire. I joined some clubs, read what ever I could get my hands on, and attend some shoots...I did learned lots...one thing I learned is you get what you paid for...which is fine.

I had a different frizzen put on my rifle as the frizzen I had was very soft... I'm still having issues getting a spark. Now that I read more about the various issues with getting the rifle to fire I see that my flint is only striking about 1/4 of my frizzen (at the bottom). I heard about heating and bending my hammer but also heard that if I do that, the angle will not be proper when the flint hits the frizzen. Maybe worth a try?

Does anyone have any suggestions short of buying a new lock assembly for $150...I only spent a couple hundred bucks on the rifle and think I would rather put the cost of a new lock toward a new flintlock down the road. Does anyone know if there is an aftermarket hammer I could buy that fixes the TC Hawken issue? ...I heard that this issue is common with this type (era?) of gun.

Again, please forgive my lack of knowledge...I understand it may be hard to help much without having the rifle in hand. At this point I'm just reaching as I really want to have some reliability with the gun when I take it out into the woods.

UPDATE...a friend recommended that I post my question on this forum in addition to where I originally posted...I'm new to this forum and just starting to look through the old posts...I may see answers to my questions...this is a great resource!

Thank you very much!!!

Dino

[email protected]
716-866-8222 - cell

 

[Grenadier1758]

The first step I would try is to install your flint with the bevel of the sharp edge down. That will place the cutting or sparking edge higher on the frizzen. (Its also the cheapest.)

The second step is slightly more involved. Determine if you have the old style or new style T/C flintlock. The old style is notorious for poor performance. You can upgrade the lock by replacing the hammer with a Lyman (Investarms) hammer or a new style T/C hammer. There were photos on this forum before Photobucket took away third party posting, but that's another topic.Once upon a time T/C would replace the hammer, but since the T/C sidelocks are out of production S&W does not have the parts to replace the hammer.

 

[dinorocks]

Thank you very much for your reply! I tried flipping my flint with no avail. I did do some digging on past posts and saw the pict of the old verse new locks...I will be comparing the pict to my lock later.

Take care,
Dino

 

[Boomerang]

What size flint are you using? 5/8" or 3/4". It sounds like you might need a longer flint or shim it out more so it engages the frizzen about 2/3 the way up on it.

 

[dinorocks]

I ordered the flints a while back...they recommended 5/8 x 3/4...The more I read into this, the more I'm learning and the more questions come up...I'll be taking a close look later today. Thanks!

"English gun flint, 5/8 x 3/4", small Siler, L&R Bailes, CVA, all Thompson Center flintlocks, Lyman Great Plains & Trade Rifles, Pedersoli LePage pistol"

 

[Col. Batguano]

If you go to a double leather shim on the bottom, that will raise the flint higher in the cock. YOu can also shim a part of the flint to angle it upwards or downwards slightly, but it's better for flint life if it angles downward and doesn't smash so head-on in to the frizzen. That also helps keep the flint somewhat self-knapping.

You shouldn't have to resort to heating and bending the metal parts to change the cock or frizzen face angle. Just remember that if you bend the frizzen face, you will have to re-temper it.

If you do an advanced search, you will see there are numerous threads and posts that address the correct strike angle for the flint / frizzen interface

 

[Rifleman1776]

From here it looks to me like you still have a soft frizzen issue. Try a face hardening, maybe with Kasenite or similar. Won't last forever but can be redone and give you a chance use yer rifle and to shop for a 'real' flintlock rifle.

 

[PaulTBarton]

How about this one?

Lyman Replacement frizzen for T/C

BartSr
aka Paul

 

[Grenadier1758]

RMC Oxyoke also has the replacement Investarms hammer. Use the link in the previous post and look up replacement parts for Lyman.

Its possible that the rehardening of your frizzen wasn't as effective as it could have been.

The complete replacement lock from L&R will cost almost as much as you paid for your rifle.

If you can, post a picture of your lock at half cock with the frizzen down. The flint edge should be about 1/8" from the face of the frizzen. Use the leather shims to position the edge to strike the frizzen about 1/3 from the top.

 

[dinorocks]

Thanks! I took some picts but having trouble getting them posted...I'll keep trying to figure this out...hoping there is another way other than Photobucket.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Imgur.com

Also flickr.com (but I haven't tried that one).

 

[dinorocks]

Thanks for all the replies!!

I have used multiple types of flints (cut and knapped) and I have flipped them 180 degrees in an attempt to get them to strike higher on the frizzen. I read that I could try to shim the flint so it strikes higher on the frizzen”¦I plan to give that at try.

I do not want to heat my hammer (cock) as I don't want to mess up the geometry...and, at this point, I don't know how to properly heat treat my frizzen or face hardening it.

A friend replaced my frizzen with one that was supposedly harder...

Below are some picts (hopefully the links work)”¦note the flint was sharp and it was centered more that it is now.

 

[nhmoose]

That flint does not look sharp to me in fact it looks battered and needing to be sharpened.

It is also way more forward in the jaws than I would place it.

 

[Old Sarge]

Use English black knapped flints and I bet you have better luck. Never had any luck with those sawn agates.

 

[coloradoclyde]

My advice....start over...

Get a L&R replacement lock and the right sized black English flints.
https://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?o...le&id=74:tc-lock&catid=36:cva-small&Itemid=62

 

[don hepler]

Your flint, wouldn't cut hot butter. Think of a flint, the same as you would shaving. The angle for a flint and razor, are much alike.

Yes, that is the old lock. I had TC replace mine, but that ain't going to happen now.

I use English flints, but I am particular about the length and thickness. So, I hand pick them. I want the top and bottom to be parallel.

A flint is not just a rock smashing against steel. Keep the flint, the frizzen, and the pan, clean and dry. Use 4f in the pan. Keep the touch hole clean, also. Be consistent, once you figure out the technique.

 

[coloradoclyde]

A flint is not just a rock smashing against steel.

Right!....it is a razor sharp knife slicing steel.... :thumbsup:

 

[dinorocks]

[General reply...not directed to Colorado Clyde]

Ok, my bad...I probably should have put a different flint in for the pictures...this was not the flint I was using last. I understand that the flints need to be sharp and they were when I was trying to get a consistent spark...I also understand that the flint needs to hit the frizzen at a certain angle to maximize spark generation. I'm a primitive archer and knap my own points ... and consistently win one-log fire championships at my club using flint and steel :wink: ...once I starting getting into primitive archery and practicing primitive skills, I figured it was only appropriate I learned to work with stone as I'm a professional geologist. Anyway, the purpose of the picts was to show the angle/location that the flint would hit the frizzen and get suggestions on troubleshooting the issue. Short of heat-bending the cock or replacing the lock (which would cost as much as the gun)...I would rather upgrade my rifle. I'm going to follow your advise and shim the flint.

While shooting, I was sliding the flint up...hoping it would hit more of the frizzen but I have since read that I should cut a notch in the flint leather and move the flint back so the flint is touching the screw (to give it as much stability as possible)..guessing I will need longer flints.

Thanks again for all the input! Very exciting, so much to learn! I will post an update next week.

Have a nice weekend!

Dino

 

[dinorocks]

Update on status of flintlock...

One of our forum members reached out to me to introduce me to a blacksmith (thanks again!). I sent my lock to the blacksmith; he re-hardened my frizzen, re-hardened and tempered the frizzen spring, and cleaned up the lock plate around the frizzen. No work was done on the cock - I have the shorter older version (i.e., it was not lengthened).

I took the rifle out to range and had almost zero misfires (i.e., no fires).

I met a "mentor" and experienced gun builder through a local black powder club, I spent about 4 hours with him over with weekend and learned lots! He taught me how to completely disassemble my lock. We removed some minor burs and greased up all the parts. We measured the force to open the frizzen (just under two pounds) as well as measure the barrel diameter, ball diameter, and the thickness of the patches I'm using (just so I know). We noted that there is some play in the cock...the hole that the cock "shaft" passes through is a bit wider than the cock shaft causing it to wiggle a bit...not sure I can do much about that.

I believe the flints I have been using were much to small. The longer and thicker flints I tried seem to work much better. Being thick, I didn't need to put leather under the flint to get it to hit higher on the frizzen.

As soon as the rain stops, I plan to get back out on the range.

Take care,
Dino

 

[Tom Compton]

Ive used brass shim stock to tighten the fit such as your cock to tumbler situation and even when a sight was a little loose in a dovetail.
TC