Help: Lack of loading data for .69 caliber.

[Rudyard]

New to blackpowder but as a lifelong shooter, and armchair historian, I recently picked up a (replica) Pedersoli .69 caliber 1777 Charlieville. Beautiful rifle.
Also picked up, on recommendation, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual. But....

The Pedersoli came with a generic little chart for recommended loads that maxed out at .58 caliber.
Didn’t sweat this as I had the Lyman book but, while chock full of good generic info on the sport, it’s load data seems geared toward rifled barrels and also maxing out at .58 caliber. Only one smoothbore chart for the .75 Brown Bess.

Anyone know of a book or a good website for load data for a .69 caliber smoothbore?

The Charlville isnt a rifle its a musket Rudyard

 

[John Spartan]

Yes. The OP is 9 months old. I’m a salty veteran now.

 

[flconch53]

And sometimes you had the nervous nellies that loaded 3, 4 and 5 rounds on top of another and would eventually blow up like a Russian Sub.

But what the heck did they do with the prime ? did they prime 3-5 times, the pan wouldnt’ close.

One of the causes of "stacked" loads was flash in the pan followed by a sergeant yelling to reload. That was not the only reason but I have even seen this at reenactments.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

New to blackpowder but as a lifelong shooter, and armchair historian, I recently picked up a (replica) Pedersoli .69 caliber 1777 Charlieville. Beautiful rifle.
Also picked up, on recommendation, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual. But....

The Pedersoli came with a generic little chart for recommended loads that maxed out at .58 caliber.
Didn’t sweat this as I had the Lyman book but, while chock full of good generic info on the sport, it’s load data seems geared toward rifled barrels and also maxing out at .58 caliber. Only one smoothbore chart for the .75 Brown Bess.

Anyone know of a book or a good website for load data for a .69 caliber smoothbore?

Well almost Greame Wright book double rifles 577 and .69 both big bores Best and vice work up a load with a chrono. If the velocity is right then the load will be right. Just take it steady. Regards from uk. It’s stinking 40 degrees west of London

 

[Gordoncourtney]

You will have a primed gun as you are ramming the main charge and ball home. If things go wrong, they will go very wrong. Recommend and required at a lot of ranges and shoots to prime the pan after the main charge and ball are loaded.

A guy at a friends muzzle loaders club had the gun go off. The ramrod going through his hand and then through the roof. A bit messy don’t know final outcome so beware how you hold the ramrod ????a mallet is better than your hand The accidents seldom happen but when they do they are nasty. A .303 martini , yes an unmentionable. went off blowing and splitting the barrel and receiver nobody hurt , it is thought the ammunition was from a later date but no tell teL marks as to that A powder flask also blew up sitting on the furring bench

All great fun.

 

[Packrat]

I have the 1816 musket in 69 cal. I had a friend make some minnies and I loaded 100 grains behind it. When it went off I took three steps backwards, didn't harm the musket but would not use a charge like that again, PS I'm 76 and 180 pounds

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I have the 1816 musket in 69 cal. I had a friend make some minnies and I loaded 100 grains behind it. When it went off I took three steps backwards, didn't harm the musket but would not use a charge like that again, PS I'm 76 and 180 pounds

So what i am 79 ha ha. My unspeakable 577-500 no 2. It is designed for 140 g bp but only a light 440g bullet But that’s a big round ball a bloody cannon if you ask me
As I said before if the velocity is right the charge of BP is right. But what velocity is it around 1300 ft sec or lower I guess. Very interesting people talk about the Bess but not what it can do to the enemy. Yes watched film “Waterloo”.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I broke off to do some calculations a .69’round lead ball is around 1.25 Oz or 498.75 gr Energy tables calculate at 1300 to 1600 ft:sec but willapidia claims max g1800ft sec will give say 1600 ft lbs to 2500 ft lbs of energy, not very powerful for game at say 300 yards you might think , but on humans devastating. I guess, imagine 50 lead balls flying towards you at 1500ft sec The forum contributers not showing the power of this remarkable historic gun

I have little interest in a Bess other than their magnificent locks. Where are the 4.2 million that were produced

Just thinking in the bath. A very hot sweaty day west of London. At last my little 15 ft dia pool is filling up have a swom
Monday evening.

See you guys

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Well it's not for "some places"...

The "combat loading procedure" for your musket was to open the cartridge and use some of the powder in the cartridge to prime your pan, (soldiers didn't carry priming horns you see) and THEN the soldier would pour the remaining powder down the barrel, followed by ramming down the ball in the now empty paper cartridge. So that meant ramming down with your hand in front of the muzzle, while the musket is fully capable of being fired.

LD

Last year at a mates club in Norfolk uk. A ml went off pushing the ramrod through his hand and the roof. Nasty he’s ok

How dangerous is it to carry a powder on your body. Accidents are few and far between but at another club a powder horn went off on the bench, no idea but probably brass, as it’s uk nobody hurt you can never be too careful

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Last year at a mates club in Norfolk uk. A ml went off pushing the ramrod through his hand and the roof. Nasty he’s ok

How dangerous is it to carry a powder on your body. Accidents are few and far between but at another club a powder horn went off on the bench, no idea but probably brass, as it’s uk nobody hurt you can never be too careful

Yeah there is a well respected guy on YouTube who does all sorts of modern gun videos, but he does a video on the Bess and his GOEX can is on a bench forward of his muzzle with the nozzle open when he shoots. He doesn't have an accident, but it makes me cringe even when I think of it.

LD

 

[rich pierce]

I use 85 grains of FFG and a patched .662 ball with my .69. I did not find improved accuracy with more powder. It’s basically a 50 yard deer gun with round ball.

 

[tenngun]

Dualist 54 did some test with a .62. He found large charges seem to shoot better.
The theory is the hot high pressure blows past an undersized ball and keeps it from rattling in the bore
I find charges in the 70 grain range work very well with a patched or well wadded ball.
BP TV found a substantial loss of velocity using tow over modern wads. But with tow you can make a nest that shoots almost as well as a patch to fifty yards.
I don’t think any ML has one best load, and smoothies are a rule on to them selfs.
Between poor aim and poor technique that happens to the best of shooters, and Gods own sense of humor smoothies get more fliers then rifles, and even then rifles get fliers.
However, once you fiddle with your charges loads, techniques you can get a gun that shoots small.

 

[tenngun]

Just as a side note. When we work up a hunting load we get some really powerful rounds. A fat ball may not tip high on the foot pounds scale but does devastating damage to game compared to modern high powered rifles, when the ml is is proper range
We see from history balls stoped by belt buckles or pocket bibles, I think it was Chamberlin at Gettysburg who had a minnie stop on his sword.
Nelson was shot at Trafalgar at close range, certainly less then sixty yards. He was a slight man. About 5’4 and slim. The ball was shot from the enemies mast top. It struck him at the top of his shoulder and angled down through his body. It hit on of nearly the spine. But did not exit.
I’ve shot a deer or two in angle shots but the ball from my .62 always exits. And deer mass about Nelson’s size or bigger
Between spilled powder, sea damp powder, or strange factors, battle field loads seemed to have been less powerful then what we hunt with today.
Some will say our powder today is better made hence more powerful, but when ballistic test were first done in the eighteenth century and on into the nineteenth velocities seem right in the ball park of what we get today

 

[SlidePicker]

Most of us don't need to make Magnums out of our muskets. A .69 caliber is a 14 gauge shotgun. The long standard field load for 16 gauge "unmentionables" is 2 1/2 drams (68.4 grains) powder and 1 ounce (which a .66 caliber ball weighs) shot. Standard muzzle velocity for that with shot is 1150 FPS. If you want to round up to the larger side, a standard 12 gauge field load is 3 drams (82 grains) powder and 1 1/8 ounce shot, MV 1200 FPS. That's with wads that seal the gas pretty effectively behind the charge. Military paper cartridges used much larger powder loads, but as has been said some was poured into the pan (up to 10 grains or so), the ball was smaller (typically .65 caliber), the cartridge paper was usually on top of the ball to hold it in rather than behind where it might seal), the gas would blow the paper right away, and much of the charge would blow around the ball through the "windage" between the ball and bore. Behind sealing wads or a patched ball, the powder propels the ball much more efficiently and less is needed. Unless you're using undersized balls loaded with paper wrapping only, I'd look to shotgun loads as a guide. In a shotgun with wads, a ball will fly considerably faster than an equal weight of shot, due to less friction against the barrel walls. A 1 ounce ball moving just above the speed of sound is a formidable missile, and if it leaves the muzzle much above that, a round ball slows very rapidly to subsonic speed, so overloading doesn't give as much more energy downrange as some think.

 

[Stantheman86]

I use .648 round balls in a masking paper cartridge, with 100 gr of 1f. I prime with 1f also.

If I don't feel like messing with cartridges, I'll pour a measured 100gr charge down the pipe, drop a ball down and then ram newspaper wadding down on top of the ball of a roughly sized 3"x3" square. Also a historically correct method of loading.

I figure I'd use them like they were designed to be used.

I've found recoil with the .648 round ball and 100 gr charge isn't even as bad as a .58 rifle with a 60 gr charge. Maybe it's me but a .58 3-bander is a shoulder thumper, but I can shoot a full cartridge box of 40 rounds through my .69 smoothbore and it's a relaxing experience.

Obviously priming the pan from the cartridge and then loading the musket was a procedure designed to be used in combat , and safety obviously goes out the window when the enemy is slinging volleys at you. Getting your hand shot off by going off half cocked was the least of your problems at that point.