Help identifying maker/date of 1858 NMA

[Justin.44]

Hey guys, first off I apologize for the bad pics, my phone camera is not good.

I came across this old 1858 repro today and got it super cheap. It could use a good cleaning but seems to function good. I tried to get pics of all the markings but some are difficult to see so I'll list them.

Cylinder - shield symbol with star above and a PN with a star above as well.

Butt - 096363

Under barrel - 845

Side of barrel - P(?) For black powder only made in italy. ( Possibly an M after the P but not sure, it's super faint.

If anybody can help identify the maker or approximate date of manufacture that would be awesome! Thanks, Justin

 

[kje54]

Hey guys, first off I apologize for the bad pics, my phone camera is not good.

I came across this old 1858 repro today and got it super cheap. It could use a good cleaning but seems to function good. I tried to get pics of all the markings but some are difficult to see so I'll list them.

Cylinder - shield symbol with star above and a PN with a star above as well.

Butt - 096363

Under barrel - 845

Side of barrel - P(?) For black powder only made in italy. ( Possibly an M after the P but not sure, it's super faint.

If anybody can help identify the maker or approximate date of manufacture that would be awesome! Thanks, JustinView attachment 50425View attachment 50426View attachment 50427View attachment 50428

The PN with the star above it is the Gardone V.T black powder proofing house stamp.

 

[kje54]

I don't see a date stamp on it and the shield with star above it is another Gardone proofing stamp.

 

[kje54]

I don't see a date stamp on it and the shield with star above it is another Gardone proofing stamp.

I also don't see any manufacturer's stamps anywhere.

 

[Justin.44]

Yeah I looked everywhere, it's weird. Some of the markings are pretty faint so I guess it's possible that some of them have all together gone away. Thanks for the info.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Justin.44. Are there any markings under the loading lever? Often the maker will put their stamp under the barrel and hidden by the loading lever.

The picture looks interesting. Hope you got another good buy.

 

[hawkeye2]

I don't see any visible threads at the back of the barrel though you don't have a good photo of that area. Euroarms, previously Armi San Palo, manufactured a repro with that frame. The manufacturer's marks should be visible on the bottom of the barrel above the loading lever though if it was assembled from a kit they may have been removed during finishing. ASP's mark is a DGG in a circle and would be under the barrel just in front of the cylinder arbor. One of mine was assembled from a kit and incompletely finished but all the markings are very faint. The proof marks on the cylinder are in the same location as yours and the proofs and date code on the frame are on the right just below the rear of the cylinder. The EOA/ASP front sight and loading lever latch are dovetailed into the barrel but it's hard to see. The serial # is on the bottom of the grip.

I have been told one other very early manufacturer, long gone, of Remingtons used the same frame with hidden barrel threads but have never seen one so I can't say for certain.

 

[Justin.44]

@Justin.44. Are there any markings under the loading lever? Often the maker will put their stamp under the barrel and hidden by the loading lever.

The picture looks interesting. Hope you got another good buy.

No it doesn't. that's where I was expecting something to be but it just says 845.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The next time we are at the Gemmer range, you'll have to let us take a look at it. I admit that most of our expertise is on those rifles and shotguns shot along the Mississippi River. Chunk guns and table shoots in particular.

 

[Justin.44]

I don't see any visible threads at the back of the barrel though you don't have a good photo of that area. Euroarms, previously Armi San Palo, manufactured a repro with that frame. The manufacturer's marks should be visible on the bottom of the barrel above the loading lever though if it was assembled from a kit they may have been removed during finishing. ASP's mark is a DGG in a circle and would be under the barrel just in front of the cylinder arbor. One of mine was assembled from a kit and incompletely finished but all the markings are very faint. The proof marks on the cylinder are in the same location as yours and the proofs and date code on the frame are on the right just below the rear of the cylinder. The EOA/ASP front sight and loading lever latch are dovetailed into the barrel but it's hard to see. The serial # is on the bottom of the grip.

I have been told one other very early manufacturer, long gone, of Remingtons used the same frame with hidden barrel threads but have never seen one so I can't say for certain.

The front sight and latch are dovetailed on this, but no markings on frame under cylinder area. Thanks for the info, it does appear to be pretty old but with no other marks... I don't know

 

[Justin.44]

The next time we are at the Gemmer range, you'll have to let us take a look at it. I admit that most of our expertise is on those rifles and shotguns shot along the Mississippi River. Chunk guns and table shoots in particular.

Sounds good, and gives me another excuse to get to the range!

 

[kje54]

The front sight and latch are dovetailed on this, but no markings on frame under cylinder area. Thanks for the info, it does appear to be pretty old but with no other marks... I don't know

View attachment 50433

At this point I'd be surprised to find out the manufacturer unless someone here knows that gun's or similar gun's history. For all we know it was a kit and someone remove most of the stamps or it's an original that someone found a repo cylinder that worked with it.

 

[sourdough]

I took the liberty of somewhat enhancing a couple of your photos as best as I could considering the lack of resolution.

The stamp on the backstrap butt appears to be 863. If the SN on the underside of the barrel is 845, it is a parts gun. Are there no numbers on the frame?

The only marks in this photo I can discern are on the rear of the right side barrel flat, and they don't look like the conventional Italian proof marks.

If there is no date code, either two alpha characters in a rectangle (1975 or later) or Roman numerals (prior to 1975), it is either a kit gun, it has been defarbed, or it is a parts gun. The idea that it has been defarbed is a long shot seeing proof marks on the cylinder.

My vote goes towards it being a parts gun as nothing else adds up to me. I am thinking the originator created a revolver from parts on hand for a shooter, and nothing more, and then sold it.

I am not an aficionado of Remington NMA revolvers, but I am a parts changer when it comes to repro Pietta 1851 Navy .36 "type' revolvers as I like to create Confederate revolvers using modern parts based upon Pietta 1851 Navy .36 revolvers. Easy enough to do, but when I die and my guns are put on the market, folks will debate as to whether these are "true" Pietta guns, and they aren't because Pietta never marketed them, but that won't cease the debate as Pietta has marketed many non-historical revolvers, so I believe the discussion will be that my guns would be a "possible" Pietta revolver with no provenance involved.

Brave New World insofar as "correct" Piettas. There will, at some time, be a huge following concerning collectible repro C&B revolvers like there is for Colt 2nd Gen, 3rd Gen, Signature Series, et al, revolvers, but it will be much more vast concerning all of the Italian manufacturers (large and small) from the late 50's until the 90's and the lack of info concerning the small manufacturers.

It has been happening since prior to 2010 but not many are paying attention.

https://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php
Regards,

Jim

 

[Justin.44]

I took the liberty of somewhat enhancing a couple of your photos as best as I could considering the lack of resolution.

The stamp on the backstrap butt appears to be 863. If the SN on the underside of the barrel is 845, it is a parts gun. Are there no numbers on the frame?


View attachment 50434

The only marks in this photo I can discern are on the rear of the right side barrel flat, and they don't look like the conventional Italian proof marks.
View attachment 50435

If there is no date code, either two alpha characters in a rectangle (1975 or later) or Roman numerals (prior to 1975), it is either a kit gun, it has been defarbed, or it is a parts gun. The idea that it has been defarbed is a long shot seeing proof marks on the cylinder.

My vote goes towards it being a parts gun as nothing else adds up to me. I am thinking the originator created a revolver from parts on hand for a shooter, and nothing more, and then sold it.

I am not an aficionado of Remington NMA revolvers, but I am a parts changer when it comes to repro Pietta 1851 Navy .36 "type' revolvers as I like to create Confederate revolvers using modern parts based upon Pietta 1851 Navy .36 revolvers. Easy enough to do, but when I die and my guns are put on the market, folks will debate as to whether these are "true" Pietta guns, and they aren't because Pietta never marketed them, but that won't cease the debate as Pietta has marketed many non-historical revolvers, so I believe the discussion will be that my guns would be a "possible" Pietta revolver with no provenance involved.

Brave New World insofar as "correct" Piettas. There will, at some time, be a huge following concerning collectible repro C&B revolvers like there is for Colt 2nd Gen, 3rd Gen, Signature Series, et al, revolvers, but it will be much more vast concerning all of the Italian manufacturers (large and small) from the late 50's until the 90's and the lack of info concerning the small manufacturers.

It has been happening since prior to 2010 but not many are paying attention.

https://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php
Regards,

Jim

Thanks for the reply! No markings on frame and the butt actually has the # 096363 but in the bad pics you can only see 3 numbers. On the side of the barrel there's a P and possibly an M after the P but very faint and i can make out " For black powder only made in italy". Without any more markings I guess there's no way to know who the maker is, no big deal but I am curious. Thanks! Justin

 

[hawkeye2]

On the right vertical barrel flat starting at the frame/barrel junction are 2 proof marks followed by the black powder only warning. This is true of my ASP and both Euroarms revolvers. The warning on the ASP (probable kit gun) is so faint as to be almost impossible to read. All of the markings on the 2 factory finished Euroarms guns are very shallow and faint though easy to read. It wouldn't take much to remove the identifying marks from either. If you get the chance to lay it beside any other brand of '58 I'll bet you find it is just slightly smaller and there is less room between the grip and back of the trigger guard. At this point I am almost 100% certain the gun is ASP/Euroarms. I just noticed the serial #s on my 2 Euroarms guns are only 18 digits apart.

 

[Justin.44]

On the right vertical barrel flat starting at the frame/barrel junction are 2 proof marks followed by the black powder only warning. This is true of my ASP and both Euroarms revolvers. The warning on the ASP (probable kit gun) is so faint as to be almost impossible to read. All of the markings on the 2 factory finished Euroarms guns are very shallow and faint though easy to read. It wouldn't take much to remove the identifying marks from either. If you get the chance to lay it beside any other brand of '58 I'll bet you find it is just slightly smaller and there is less room between the grip and back of the trigger guard. At this point I am almost 100% certain the gun is ASP/Euroarms. I just noticed the serial #s on my 2 Euroarms guns are only 18 digits apart.

Thanks for the info. I'll bet you're right. I'm gonna clean it up tonight and test it out soon.

 

[toot]

The front sight and latch are dovetailed on this, but no markings on frame under cylinder area. Thanks for the info, it does appear to be pretty old but with no other marks... I don't know

View attachment 50433

the front sight is what is called a PINCHED FRONT SIGHT.

 

[Desperate Lee]

I have 2 of the ASP Beals styled '58's. One is s factory built unit. The other is a kit gun that the owner defarbed as he built it. My factory gun has the DGG marking under the loading leaver, the date code on the right side of the frame, AC in a square (1977). These guns are shooters. Clean it up, load it up, and enjoy. A word on the grips, they are small. Dont load them to magnum specs, your middle finger will not like it. On the other hand 20 grns BLACK, 10 grns COW, and a .454 rb is a perfect smooth load. Enjoy it, they are well built. My 2 below. I love them and wont part with them.

DL

 

[Justin.44]

I have 2 of the ASP Beals styld '58's. One is s factory built unit. The other is a kit gun that the owner defarbed as he built it. My factory gun has the DGG marking under the loading leaver. These guns are shooters. Clean it up, load it up, and enjoy. A word on the grips, they are small. Dont load them to magnum specs, your middle finger will not like it. On the other hand 20 grns BLACK, 10 grns COW, and a .454 rb is a perfect smooth load. Enjoy it, they are well built.

DL

Thanks! I'll clean it up and try that load out. I'll update how it does, Justin

 

[Justin.44]

I have 2 of the ASP Beals styled '58's. One is s factory built unit. The other is a kit gun that the owner defarbed as he built it. My factory gun has the DGG marking under the loading leaver, the date code on the right side of the frame, AC in a square (1977). These guns are shooters. Clean it up, load it up, and enjoy. A word on the grips, they are small. Dont load them to magnum specs, your middle finger will not like it. On the other hand 20 grns BLACK, 10 grns COW, and a .454 rb is a perfect smooth load. Enjoy it, they are well built. My 2 below. I love them and wont part with them.

DL

Hey I just saw your pics, very nice. Yeah looks just like it, I just cleaned it up and oiled it. I was pleasently surprised how well the bore cleaned up, it was rough looking! Gonna try it out tomorrow evening.

Also, I already know what you mean about it being rough on my middle finger, it's already sore from cocking it a dozen times or so. I can only imagine what it feels like after a few stout loads! I'll post a couple pics post clean up. Justin