help id this double

[dlimoges]

I was reading your post and the gun I just bought has all the same proof marks except for a pointed crown over 78. I also thank everyone . Now I can date my 10.6 ga and begin a serch for parts for the lock.A least the springs are still there. But the parts are wel worn.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

I almost agree with tac's date assessment, but I think the gun is from the 1850's - 1880's. But I also wish my eyesight were as goodas his! I can't make out the tower he sees. The clearest markings on the barrels' underside are definitely the ELG in the oval. This is the final proof mark in the process of proofing the barrels (basically loading the bores with an extra powerful load to make sure of their integrity and that they will be safe with normal use). I also clearly see the H P, which I agree are the inspector's initials, but have not a clue who it is. I can find NO evidence of a Belgian Inspector with those initials. The absence or illegibility of the gauge stamp bothers me. It HAS to be there, because ALL percussion arms and breechloaders had both the gauge stamp and the aforementioned ELG oval. The rib marking of LAMINATED STEEL tells us both the composition as well as the gun is American made. Most, nearly all less inexpensive guns, sometimes called "hardware store" guns or "barn guns" had them. But what trips me up is the more refined details than what one would see on these guns. The wedge pin's engraving is exquisite, and other furniture is better than what one would see on these lesser guns.

I'll have to throw my arms up and study a bit more! Time to walk the dog! Until later - Marc

 

[Dave K]

This is some new, news. I doubt very much that these guns were made in America. Most likely made in Belgium as the ELG on the barrel tells us they are. The engraving is very typical of these guns and if looked at, is not engraved at all, but it is cast in or "rolled" on. Laminated steel is another very common wording of barrel manufacture of the period. Hardware store guns from the muzzleloader period were usually supplied my Belguim gun makers but imported by the large hardware stores of the time in large orders. When they placed these large orders, they could have any name they chose, placed on the guns. Hibbard & Spencer, Simmons Hardware Co. to name a couple, were such hardware stores. W.Richards, a Belgium gun co. made guns with Laminated steel barrels, that were also sold through the hardware companies. There is a huge list of these, if on were to take the time to look. Just as Crescent Arms, later bought by Folsum guns, made at last count over 150 different brand name of guns, but were actually the same gun, coming from the same factory, with just the name that the store chose to be on the gun, that was retailing the gun. We actually see the same things today with many products. Sears for one, markets "Kenmore" appliances, but Sears or Kenmore is not making them. It is only a distributer and a marketing name. The same thing happend with guns.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Yes you are 100% right I made no mention of Belgium because I didn't know it was a country If I had I would have said something about the barrels having Belgian proof marks or something like that but I didn't because I am strung out baby jes a stung out dude er otta me

 

Laminated steel = Laminated steel [allegedly]

Laminated steel is a form of "Damascus." The 19th century method of making laminated shotgun barrels was wind strips of metal or wire around a mandrell, then hammer-weld it together. Other labels for this method are "Twist Steel" and "Stubb Twist." Though they were safe enough when new, if a gun has not been properly cared for in the following 100, or so, years, the barrel may have sub-surface rust spots which weakens it, and may cause it to fail catastrophically. In other words, blow up in your face. Modern shotgun shells are much more powerful than the intended black powder ammunition of 1890's, so a gun with laminated barrels SHOULD NOT BE SHOT WITH MODERN AMMUNITION.

CPb]

 

[dlimoges]

I hate to use another post for another question,but I notice that my double has one more stamp on it. It has a five pointed crown,with a 73 or a 78 under it.

 

[dlimoges]

No one commented on another addition to the Belgium proof marks .My gun has a five pointed crown with 73 or 78 under it.I do not see this on the proof mark list.

 

[TFoley]

No one commented on another addition to the Belgium proof marks .My gun has a five pointed crown with 73 or 78 under it.I do not see this on the proof mark list.

Hmmm. V odd. A five-pointed crown is the Eibar [Spain] stamp since 1910. But NOT with numbers underneath it.

And BTW - the Perron stamp can be clearly seen in the centre of the top image - it looks like the famous [to some] Nelson's Column in London's Trafalgar Square, but lying on its side. It is, however, very poorly struck, and only shows part of the base. It looks a little bit like this - ==X [if you squint.]

And a radical rethink and examination shows me that the letters 'H.P' are actually J H. Still no wiser there, as they are not on my list either.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund