Grubby stocks and finishing

[Col. Batguano]

Guys,

I'm starting to close in on approaching the staining point on my latest build. Like everyone that builds, my stock has accumulated a bunch of gunk over the time I've been handling it. For most areas, scraping and then sanding will yield a nice clean surface to apply the stain. But in some areas, like around carving (both raised and incised) it's about impossible to get that smudged pencil from a zillion draw and erase sessions off of everything.

I THINK I'm planning on using an AF stain, but Dave Person has suggested that a ferric nitrate stain is more controllable, so I may go that route. In any case, that ultimate decision is still some weeks away. I'm seeking a "Lehigh chocolate red" color in the end, as, this is after all, a Lehigh (Kuntz) gun.

So here's the question;
If I don't get everything completely clean before starting the stain, will that be noticeable when the stain gets applied (meaning done)? Would some graphite in there somehow interfere with either AF, or ferric nitrate in performing their magic?

I'm about a year in to the project now, so there's no good reason to rush anything that might somehow undo all that work that's been done to date. A bad staining or finishing job is one of those things that can be a real distraction from an otherwise very nice piece.

 

[dave_person]

Hi David,
Visit the link below to Eric von Ashwege's web site. Go to his tutorial section and look up "red violin varnish" and also "Lehigh details" http://www.neahkahnieflintlocks.com/red-violin-varnish.html
Eric is a good friend and he is currently the hired apprentice in the gunshop at at Colonial Williamsburg.

dave

 

[Zonie]

If the final stain/AF color is dark, the dirty areas probably won't be noticable after your finished.

If your really concerned go to an art supply store and buy a couple of the soft "art gum" or Faber-Castell Kneaded Erasers.

They won't remove any wood but they will erase graphite and oily deposits that are left by your hands.

A better way to remove any oily deposits is to use the lye water method of bringing out the tannin in the wood.
This not only increases the contrast between the stripes and the adjacent wood but it totally dissolves any oily deposits leaving the wood ready for the stain.

If you do use the lye water method do not use any real hair brushes as the lye will dissolve the hair. It also will dissolve your skin so wear rubber protection.
Neutralize the lye with full strength vinegar.

While I'm talking about lye, it won't attack steel, brass, bronze or German silver or Sterling silver so if you have inlays or wire inlays you don't need to worry about protecting them.

Lye does attack anything that is made out of aluminum, creating pure hydrogen gas so don't use any aluminum around it.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Jim,
Lehigh Valley guns were often finished with a madder red pigmented varnish. The stain actually obscured the grain a little, although when rubbed back it was very beautiful. Eric von Aschwege describes the method very nicely on his web site.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi David,
I forgot to mention, there is a product called "KleanWood" which you can get from most hardware stores. It contains acetone so use gloves but it will clean dirt, oils, and stains from the wood before you stain the stock. I've used it on really dirty stocks and Mitch Yates recommends it before staining.

dave

 

[Vaino]

I read of all the ways to intentionally rid the stock of the various things that get it "dirty" and think I'm doing something wrong.....have never purposely tried to "clean" the stock. Somehow after the final sanding, some scraping and whiskering, the stock is nice and white all over and ready for staining.

Perhaps it's the mixture of blue Permatex and blue hi-temp bearing grease that's used for "spotting" that's responsible.....doesn't soak into the wood. The other "dirt" that gets on the stock isn't really that important...it too is only on the surface and is easily removed w/ 220 grit paper during the final sanding. Forgot to mention that green Scotchbrite is used on the carving.....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

Thanks guys!

I'm going to give all of these methods a try.

Yup. I followed Eric's directions for red violin varnish finish the last time. I mulled in that Madder Lake Red pigment in to the varnish that I got from Kramer pigments, on top of a couple of LMF stains. (It's spendy stuff at about $80 a vial for just the pigment.) To be perfectly honest, I wan't all that happy or impressed with it. The varnish tended to collect in the crevices of the carving, and when I was scraping it back, it turned pink. I was not particularly happy with that. Another thin coat (of varnish without pigment in it) over it rectified it though.

But more than that, the stain and pigment treatment made the stripes sort of "muddy". They just didn't pop the way I would have preferred. So this time I think I'll try to go a different route. Though I really liked the one gun I did a few years ago with AF, it was red maple. This one is super duper highly curled sugar maple, and of course, every stick of wood is a little bit different. I paid a lot for those stripes, so it makes sense to show them off!

The thing about AF is that you really can't control it the way you can with stains. Put it on, it's that ugly gray green. Start heating it and it turns green, then yellow, then red, then brown, then black. You stop somewhere before black. But as much as that, you really don't have much control over the shade of red or brown. That makes its' use a little bit of a manure shoot.

So I'm tempted to go the ferric nitrate route, but want to know more about the controllability, and of course any health hazards to be aware of.

That's interesting about Eric. He certainly is a "name" when it comes to Lehigh County guns. That also somewhat explains why he hasn't answered any of my notes to him for a year or so now too.

 

[dave_person]

Hi David,
You might try experimenting with adding some reddish tint to the ferric nitrate or simply a reddish dye before or after the ferric nitrate. I think you will find that varying the concentration of ferric nitrate will lighten or darken the color but may not change the tint or hue. Another possibility is to get some dilute nitric acid with no iron in it. I think the Science Company can sell it in small amounts. Use the straight nitric acid as you would commercial "aqua fortis" and ferric nitrate. Paint it on and heat when dry. It should turn the wood a blushing pink. Then use ferric nitrate on top and heat again to bring up the brown colors.

dave

 

[Col. Batguano]

Thanks Dave! Another round of science experiments coming up! If it turns a blushing pink, that has GOT to be a picture you take and send to a customer about finish color options--just to have some fun with them.

Any health issues to be aware of (other than rubber gloves of course)?

 

[Billnpatti]

Denatured alcohol will remove pencil marks from wood. Wet a rag, rub the pencil marks and..POOF! they are gone. :thumbsup:

 

[dave_person]

Hi David,
Like I say, I walk the walk as well as talk the talk. So I ordered some 10% dilute nitric acid from the Science Company today. I used to use that method and I really liked it but I could not get NA very easily in Alaska. Consequently, I got used to other methods. Anyway, I went to order some and the price for a 500ml bottle was $43 with a haz mat shipping fee of over $60!! Unbelievable considering it is shipped by ground. If you decide to try it, I hope you can find a cheaper source. Maybe a local school lab could help.

dave

 

[kansas_volunteer]

It has always been my understanding that the dragon's blood of the early gunsmith was made using Alkanet root. I assume as the dragon's blood using it was made by soaking the root in turpentine or linseed oil it could have been blended into a varnish.

 

[dave_person]

Hi David,
I buy dilute 10% nitric acid so I don't fool with diluting concentrated acid, which can be dangerous (add acid to water not water to acid). Gloves and safety glasses are good if diluting acid. Also it is good to wear old clothes or an apron unless you like the look of little pin-sized holes in your pants and shirt. With regard to the shock of seeing your stock a blushing pink color, I built an authentic NE fowler for a client using cherry. To bring out the fine grain in the cherry, I painted the stock black with thinned enamel paint before staining it. The thinned paint is rubbed back first of course. However, I sent photos of the black painted gun to the client saying how sorry I was to spill black paint all over his stock. Unfortunately, he trusts me so much that he did not blink or react at all. He just sent me an e-mail that said "Very nice Dave"

dave