Got a question for the 1853 Enfield users

[Spencer_Murphy]

I took my original 1853 Enfield made in 1862 on a 3 Day Hunting trip. Yesterday I found luck a large doe walked up about 20 yards away and it stopped. I dropped the hammer and it fell where it stood and dropped clean shot into the vitals. One problem, the rifle sounded strange... I shoot my 1857 Snider all the time and I use 60 grains of powder to push out the 480gr .585" bullet no problem. I took my rifle out and spent a few weekends getting my load right. I settled on a .577" 530gr bullet cast from my Lyman 577-611 Mould. I used 70gr of FFg Goex powder. Got great results on paper, never thought about penetration issues. I looked on the internet and found that the British and Union Armies used 68-70gr of powder to push .568" and .550" bullets with paper cartridge. So I loaded up 70gr of FFg and my 530gr bullet and it took my deer. It sounded like a poof instead of muzzleloader bang. I loaded my rifle up again and shot it into a tree about 15 inches around and about 5 inches thick. I walked up to it and at a distance of 20 yards the bullet was visible barely penetrated and the skirt was sticking out. Although I took this deer and it didnt suffer I feel at a longer range my load will not be sufficient enough for deer to be taken swiftly and ethically. Does anyone here hunt with an original or reproduction Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle ? If so what powder charge do you use ? I was thinking of bumping it up to 80gr, 85gr and 90gr of FFg and seeing it how it groups on paper and then do a penetration test. I know too much powder will blow the skirt but I feel these bullets are strong enough. Thanks to all who reply.

 

[Stantheman86]

I have fired lots of rounds through Parker-Hale Enfields and other rifles and have never experienced this

Did lube contaminate your charge? Or the breech had oil in it? Did you pop a cap before loading?

Something isn't right , there's many variables here

 

[EastoftheBay]

Thats cool you have an original Civil War Rifle.

 

[Spencer_Murphy]

I have fired lots of rounds through Parker-Hale Enfields and other rifles and have never experienced this

Did lube contaminate your charge? Or the breech had oil in it? Did you pop a cap before loading?

Something isn't right , there's many variables here

I removed all oil from the rifle the night prior, I popped 3 caps off and ran dry patches down the barrel which produced no debris or oil. I then loaded my charge and then my bullet. The bullet was lubed with SPG just in the two lube belts all excess was removed from thr bullet via my sizer. The ball was also completely seated. I asked this same question on the Civil War Talk forum and got a few interesting takes.

- Take one: The original cartridge for the Enfield had a plug in the bottom of the bullet which mine did not which could've resulted in blowing around the skirt

-Take two: I need to up my powder charge to 80gr FFG due to my tree test

-Take three: Use a lighter grain bullet.

I personally believe that the 70gr should've produced great results. I think that adding a plug to the hollow base wont do anything but I could give it a try. Also I will probably buy some ballistic gel and try out upping the powder charge. Others on that forum said that flesh isnt as thick as wood so it wont matter, however it would give me piece of mind to know my rifle will swiftly and ethically harvest everytime and not make an animal suffer. Thanks for the replying I hope this helps. Also on a side note should that .577" ball gone further into that tree ? I should've taken a picture but that bullet could be dug back out with a screwdriver I will go back next weekend and recover it to see if the bullet pancaked or not.

 

[Stantheman86]

A Minie or Burton ball does not use a plug, I'm guessing it was a Minie type because you used a Lyman mold

Skirmishers use loads as light as 30 grains and I've used the 60 grain standard load for many, many rounds and never had this

Did you use pure lead for the Minie or was it an alloy, that maybe didn't expand the skirt?

Heavy charges don't do a regular Minie any favors and can blow the skirt off. They were made to expand with a relatively light charge such as the 60 grains specified by the Ordnance Dept.

 

[Spencer_Murphy]

A Minie or Burton ball does not use a plug, I'm guessing it was a Minie type because you used a Lyman mold

Skirmishers use loads as light as 30 grains and I've used the 60 grain standard load for many, many rounds and never had this

Did you use pure lead for the Minie or was it an alloy, that maybe didn't expand the skirt?

Heavy charges don't do a regular Minie any favors and can blow the skirt off. They were made to expand with a relatively light charge such as the 60 grains specified by the Ordnance Dept.

I used lead from lead sheets that I got out of our barn on the farm they were used as roofing sheets. I would assume they are pure lead damn near it they are from the 1940s and we have made all of our bullets and fishing weights out of them. I cast bullets for all my unmentionables and my .45 cal roundballs.

 

[dave951]

That sounds a lot like powder contamination. Did you put any lube in the base? That's a huge no no if you're not going to shoot immediately.

I know many N-SSA guys who hunt with the "light" loads of 40ish grains of 3f and they often get pass throughs on deer on side shots up to quartering. End on penetrates almost all the way from stem to stern. One of my best friends in the NSSA hunts with an 1858 Smith. His bullet is 350g with 30g 3f and he gets pass throughs. Something's not right about your load. More powder isn't always the correct answer.

 

[maillemaker]

70 grains of 2F behind a 530 grain Burton (Minie) ball is more powder than the US Ordnance Manual stated - 60 grains.

You should be pushing at least 1000 FPS with your load. Probably more like 1200.

British Enfield cartridges with the Pritchett bullet (circa 1853) did not initially use a plug. But with the advent of the Hay bullet they first used a hemispherical iron cup, then a truncated iron cone, then a boxwood clay plug. The final variant (1860) used the Boxer bullet (.550") and it used a fired clay plug. They used 68 grains of powder.

The Confederacy, which strived to standardize on the British Enfield cartridge throughout the war, never used the plugs, probably because of the lack of machinery to make them. They issued an order to arsenals in 1864 to standardized on the Enfield cartridge but abandoned it in a month, probably due to lack consistent supplies of paper.

The US (and many Confederate arsenals) produced the Burton ball (Minie), which had grease grooves and a hollow, unplugged cavity, and were shot "naked" (no paper patch). They used 60 grains of powder.

The only thing I could think of would be fouled powder. But I expect everything is probably just fine.

 

[Whitworth]

Sounds like your powder is damp. YMMV

 

[SwanShot]

Sounds like your powder is damp. YMMV

I shoot one of these rifles. I go with Whitworth. Change to a different batch of powder and try again.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Spencer_Murphy, my first thought is contaminated powder. However, reading about your preparation, there should not be any oil contamination of the load. The Minie' ball was seated when loaded. Did you verify that the load was still seated properly after you walked to your stand? The "poof" sounds a lot like the load may have separated during the carry to your stand.
Then I am also perplexed that your second shot into the tree did not show much penetration. Did the second shot have a sharp report and not the "poof" of the first shot?

 

[TDM]

I too believe damp powder is the culprit. Try some fresh powder first at 60 gr.

My Son has an Enfield and a Springfield. He uses 60 in both as was done in the war.

 

[springfield art]

70 grains of 2F behind a 530 grain Burton (Minie) ball is more powder than the US Ordnance Manual stated - 60 grains.

You should be pushing at least 1000 FPS with your load. Probably more like 1200.

British Enfield cartridges with the Pritchett bullet (circa 1853) did not initially use a plug. But with the advent of the Hay bullet they first used a hemispherical iron cup, then a truncated iron cone, then a boxwood clay plug. The final variant (1860) used the Boxer bullet (.550") and it used a fired clay plug. They used 68 grains of powder.

The Confederacy, which strived to standardize on the British Enfield cartridge throughout the war, never used the plugs, probably because of the lack of machinery to make them. They issued an order to arsenals in 1864 to standardized on the Enfield cartridge but abandoned it in a month, probably due to lack consistent supplies of paper.

The US (and many Confederate arsenals) produced the Burton ball (Minie), which had grease grooves and a hollow, unplugged cavity, and were shot "naked" (no paper patch). They used 60 grains of powder.

The only thing I could think of would be fouled powder. But I expect everything is probably just fine.

The CSA powder factory at Augusta made excellent high-quality powder. There was an article about that in an American Rifleman issue some years ago. The engineer who set the factory up was an top-notch powder guy and even the Union respected this powder. Some small remains of the factory still exist near Augusta, I saw the chimney when there with the Army in the 60's. They probably have a historical marker up, I believe.

 

[alcessapiens]

Did the gun get cold between firing caps and swabbing? (A couple of hours on a cold, damp day might bring some condensation into the barrel. Try a new can of powder maybe. This is the stuff that makes ml interesting. When you figure it out you feel a sense of accomplishment. Until the next weird occurrence…