• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Good looking or not?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Not really sure the analogy rings true either. The Stradivari violin was known in its time as having excellent sound; the best, and they were made with the technology of the time period. The makers are dead (yes not all of the current Stradivari violins were made by Antonio :wink: ), so no more from that source. Since the supply is limited and folks for a long time could not equal the sound, the value continues to rise. The highest price so far (iirc) is 3.6 million dollars. :shocked2:

A new maker did not appear to match the quality of Stradivari for a long time and some say such a maker of equal skill has yet to appear. Scientists have actually studied Stradivari violins to try and determine what exactly was the "secret" of the making of those violins. There are several theories, but no actual conclusive determination on how the Stradivari family made them.

Now the "price" of a custom longrifle is very subjective. It's not simply the embellishments that determine the price, but this appears to be the premise of the thread.

One could, for example, provide a good barrel, and lock, and hardware, and have a heavily embellished, custom fitted stock made and finished into a rifle with those metal parts, and pay many thousands of dollars, and shoot the rifle once a year on one's birthday (or other such anniversary). Otherwise the rifle is admired as a top-of-the-line example of the rifle carving and inlaying art. Perhaps it wouldn't be shot, though it does shoot, only admired.

Another person might pay the same price, but might buy an only slightly embellished rifle, but all of the hardware from barrel to stock to additional parts were hand made using documented techniques, and actual tools, at an existing historic site, and the result was a documentary piece that copies an existing original.

So one owner says his is the most valuable, as his is the pinnacle of the current carving and inlaying art, and the other owner says his is the most valuable as his is the purest, most authentic copy, of an original rifle made to date....,

The bottom line on value is what folks are willing to pay, plus what lengths the artist is willing to go to produce the item.

Say some fellow figures out how Stradivai did it, but it's a pain in the arse and takes him 6 months per instrument..., and the guy can only get $10,000 for his work, even though all the experts agree that the guy cracked the secret..., and the guy has huge bills so sacrificing 1/2 a year's pay from his day job for a $10,000 return won't work for him. Then a world renown violinist loses his Stradivari in a fire, and nobody is willing to part with any of the remaining ones, so since he's a multi-millionaire, and can't live nor perform without the proper sound, he looks up our modern master maker of violins, and offers $500,000 for one to be made. Suddenly the price willing to be paid has surpassed the trouble involved, and the modern master maker is in business.

Subjective. :wink:

LD
 
My guns get used a lot. None of them are fancy. Most fancy gun owners don't shoot them but when they do they are often unused to the gun and can't hit anything. I do enjoy beating a shooter with a fancy gun while shooting my old beaters.

All of my guns have good barrels and locks and feel good when I hold them. None of them are production guns except for the Pedersoli Bess.

The only fancy guns in our house are the two my wife shoots. They make her happy and that makes me happy.

Many Klatch
 
Just before Christmas I bought a Golden Age style Pennsylvania longrifle online. When it arrived and I upacked it, I was surprised at how light the gun was compared to my other longrifles. There are more than a dozen German silver inlays and some very well done relief carvings. The wood to metal fit is as good as I have ever seen. The point is that with this much attention to detail in making it look good it's hard to believe the maker did not put at least as much attention into making it a shooter. It hangs well, the sights are great and the trigger pull is crisp. I have yet to shoot it, but something tells me this one is a winner. Point being you shouldn't put lipstick on a pig, and I think any reputable gunmaker is going to think first doing all it takes to make the gun shoot well. The extra stuff that add to a rifle's eye appeal are not intended to make it shoot better, but it's natural to assume that beauty and function go hand in hand. That may not always be the case, but I'm pretty sure it happens more often than not.
 
It is an interesting topic as my favourite shooter is a rifle I bought that has a Douglas barrel and an old 'belguim' marked percussion lock and it is such a pleasure to fire.
But I got to hold the rifle that John Schippers worked on (it is featured in his engraving book) and WOW :bow: :bow: what a fit to me.
It was a pleasure to hold. It was an erotic pleasure. The stock fit my shoulder perfectly. The length of pull right on and I could have held it for an eternity. It was the most lovely thing I have ever held (except a good woman!)
The only downside (and that is because I did not have the money) was with all of the engraving on it (and there was a ton) it was over $22,000. I was holding my next car!! :rotf: :rotf:

BUT, it is true that looks will play into it but the fit, the shootability and the way it makes you feel is my main consideration for a good rifle. Glad we have such wonderful gunsmith's, makers and artists out there. Makes me appreciate their skills and then for me to strive to be that good.

My 2p worth!!

Cheers, DonK
 
A couple more points. There is plain and then there is butt ugly. I own plain guns. I wouldn't own an ugly gun. Sadly many can't tell the difference.
Also, many here assume a highly embellished gun won't shoot. That's just not true. When I build a high art gun it starts just like a plain gun, they are both built the same way. Once you get the gun stocked and shaped you finish the plain gun. If the gun will be highly decorated you continue on with the decoration, but the base for this decoration is still that same plain gun underneath.
Plain or fancy, if built by a good maker it's going to shoot if the shooter does his part.
 
Mike, one of my wife's fancy guns was built by a current name builder. The metal fit is great, the engraving is great, the wood is beautiful. My wife bought it used from a guy who's daughter no longer cared to shoot.

The only problem that I found was that there was a 1/8" gap between the priming pan and the barrel :shocked2: . The lock was a pipe bomb waiting to go off. I had to fabricate a lead washer to fit into the gap to make it safe to shoot. If we had noticed the gap before she bought it we would have haggled a bit more, but we were dazzled by the artistry. I got the feeling that this one had been meant to be a wall hanger not a shooter, but it shoots good now.

Many Klatch
 
Enjoyed reading all the replies in regards to the subject matter.
Have seen only a few really custom rifles in my time.... and no they are not in my gun cabinet. Couldn't afford one anyway.
There is something to be said when a man walks up to a bunch of commoners with a custom rifle. They all stare and give oohs and aahs over it.
Just wonder if they make pricless custom Roundballs for them thar' fancy guns?
Ok...now I'm gonna take my butt ugly cheap gun, my 6 pack of beer ( Yes in cans) and my violin to the closet and hide out for awhile. :v:
You all play nice with each other. :nono:
 
Mike Brooks said:
Sadly many can't tell the difference.

When you're just covering a crack in the plaster a sad-eyed clown on velvet works as good as a Winslow Homer and costs a lot less. :rotf:

16.jpg


winslow-homer-the-gulf-stream-83703.jpg
 
Mlers can be "sorted" into mainly 3 categories...factory, plain custom and fancy custom. Seeing that factory guns are generic and designed for an imaginary, "average" shooter, they don't necessarily "fit" many shooters well, but the shooters do "adjust" to the gun because there is no other choice.

Both categories of custom guns if made for the original owner probably will "fit" better, but not necessarily so... depends on the knowledge of the builder. Custom guns purchased used possibly won't fit the new buyer as well as the original owner. But again, the new owner will have to adjust to the gun.

A plain custom gun w/ proper architecture is a thing of beauty and most plain customs have quality components and probably are favoured by mainly hunters. Fancy customs, as was said by Mike Brooks start off as plain guns and the embellishments are an addition. Some fancy customs are shot and hunted but probably not in the same percentages as plain....this is due to the dual nature of a fancy custom gun....beauty and utility.

Whatever category of MLer is preferred is a very subjective choice and in the end, shouldn't be criticized by others w/ different preferrences. I like all MLers unless they're downright "ugly", but then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder....Fred
 
As was said before,

A quality barrel, lock, and triggers can be strapped to a 2X4 and will shoot better than most can hold it.

Just because nice components are attached to a fine piece of wood and the inletting is meticulous and its carved and engraved, does not qualify it as a fine rifle.

Its in the details, alot of folks don't care to know about those details, they just want a pretty.

Like a pig with lipstick, don't care how you dress it up, disguise it, or sing it praises, its still a pig in lipstick.


This is where the phrase " nice wood " comes from.
 
There are also some highly bedazzled ones out there that are real dogs as far as a foundation is concerned. Pigs with lipstick and designer dresses. :grin:
 
flehto said:
Mlers can be "sorted" into mainly 3 categories...factory, plain custom and fancy custom. Seeing that factory guns are generic and designed for an imaginary, "average" shooter, they don't necessarily "fit" many shooters well, but the shooters do "adjust" to the gun because there is no other choice.

Both categories of custom guns if made for the original owner probably will "fit" better, but not necessarily so... depends on the knowledge of the builder. Custom guns purchased used possibly won't fit the new buyer as well as the original owner. But again, the new owner will have to adjust to the gun.

A plain custom gun w/ proper architecture is a thing of beauty and most plain customs have quality components and probably are favoured by mainly hunters. Fancy customs, as was said by Mike Brooks start off as plain guns and the embellishments are an addition. Some fancy customs are shot and hunted but probably not in the same percentages as plain....this is due to the dual nature of a fancy custom gun....beauty and utility.

Whatever category of MLer is preferred is a very subjective choice and in the end, shouldn't be criticized by others w/ different preferrences. I like all MLers unless they're downright "ugly", but then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder....Fred
Fred, your post was a mature, logical, well balanced summary on this subject and I suspect represents a viewpoint shared by the vast majority in the muzzleloading community.

:hatsoff:
 
How much does seeing what you are using have to do with how well it shoots? If it looks good it has to be good? Do you work harder to make a nice looking gun shoot better?

Most have missed the point of the question.
It was not DO custom guns preform better?
It was, upon looking, before touching, does the “beauty” of the gun make you think it is a better gun? Does the looks of the gun make you believe, in your mind, it will be better?
The violin test had accomplished musicians participating that were all under the assumption that Stradivarius instruments were the best. However in actual tests, they were shown this is not necessarily so.
 
Beauty is subjective. Performance is relative. Functionality is the only cut-and-dried aspect and that is independant of beauty.

BUT, if you have beauty it hightens the experience. Just because a real dumpster-fire of a rifle will shoot well does not make it desireable. This is where the performance can be relative. Remember the DeTomasa car company? The Pantera was a sexy car that turned heads. And then there was the Deauville. Same 330 Hp engine. Performed as well, but looked like an American Motors Javelin. No one remembers the Deauville.
 
ebiggs, If, like your instruments, I know the maker, then yes. If I saw two guns all dolled up and knew the makers, that would definitely play into my expectations for the guns shootability. At the same time if I saw a brand new Thompson Center Hawkens, I would also have the expectation that it is a good shooter, but knowing it is mass produced, there would also be the hope that it is not the one in a thousand that slipped through their quality control with uncaught problems.
Robby
 
No Mike it wasn't one of your guns :bow: or any of the people that log onto this Forum. :wink:

Many Klatch
 
I have to relate all comments to buying a mule. I have five all good packers and riders. I know folks that bought mules for big bucks and they are worthless mules. One fella feels that if you don't pay a lot of money than your not getting a good mule How wrong he is .
 
But when you flip the mule over and see the "Made by God" label underneath you know the design and materials are sound - if not the upbringing. You can't teach and train a rifle, and they don't think for themselves (which, for better or worse, mules certainly do). :hatsoff:

Ok, so the parent horse & donkey are "Made by God" and the introduction is manmade - there still ain't a lot of hand fitting involved. :grin:
 
I'll guarantee you that a poor boy at $600.00 will shoot right along with a $2000.00 engraved and carved longrifle.I like plain rifles but some really like the fancy ones. If both are made with the same barrel and lock both should shoot equally well. FRJ
 
Back
Top