GOEX vs. Swiss

[Tom A Hawk]

I dabbled with paper patch BP cartridge loads a while back. Buffalo Arms now has wide selection of bullets and molds available now and I'm planning to get back into it.

 

[rodwha]

I shoot a LOT of Paper Patch, In fact it is what got me interested in this Hobby and how i started. I have Many Custom PP Bullet molds i had made for .45, 50, and .54 Cal, I really enjoy shooting my PP Bullets from a Shooting bench at Targets, For hunting i MUCH prefer my Grease Groove Bullets (a tighter fitting bullet that I don’t have to worry about slipping off the Powder Charge) I actually shoot more Grease Groove bullets on Target now days than i do my Paper Patch, I get every bit as good, and even better accuracy in many cases with my Grease Groove bullets. When you get a PP load dialed in they can be really accurate, But not more so than a Good Grease Groove Bullet (Depends on rifle of course) I Find Paper Patch Bullets to be more finicky, Require More Tinkering to get them Dialed in. If you enjoy tinkering, Paper Patch is a lot of fun

I’d love to see some of your grease groove bullets if you don’t mind.

 

[good ole boy]

I can see all of your points for using Swiss since it is given you results that you attribute it to part of your success.But for a lot of us that never will be in your camp and our just hunters and sportsmen and keep within a majority of our shots at 100 yards and under Goex saves it,s purpose well.Within this range havin one powder over the other ain,t gonna make a difference on the outcome of our success.My hat is off to you for what you can accomplish.

 

[fleener]

Personally I think Goex, OE and Swiss are all great powders. I think we are lucky to have the choices that we do. It would be a terrible shame if there was only one choice for us here in the USA.

Each of us are on our own journeys and we need to do what makes us happy.


Fleener

 

[Idaholewis]

Personally I think Goex, OE and Swiss are all great powders. I think we are lucky to have the choices that we do. It would be a terrible shame if there was only one choice for us here in the USA.

Each of us are on our own journeys and we need to do what makes us happy.


Fleener

I agree 110% Fleener!!

 

[Idaholewis]

I’d love to see some of your grease groove bullets if you don’t mind.

Here are a few from my molds, Random stuff in my Photos. I have a BUNCH of PP as Well, Hunting and Target. Some PP Mixed in here

540 Grain BACO elliptical, and my 330 Grain.36 Cal LR Bullet (Should get this Barrel REALLY soon)

More Elliptical, and BACO PP Slicks in the back

485 Grain .50 Cal Hunting bullet, i killed my Elk with this Year

Fun 45

More fun 45

One of my Newer .50 Cal Bullets

45 cal

420 Grain 45 Cal

.45 Cal, Lyman Whitworth 480 Grain

385 Grain .45 Cal

50 Cal Bullshop Clone, i had this made in .54 Cal as well

Custom cupped base PP Mold i had BACO Make

Lyman Gould, i can pour this bullet Hollow Point, or Solid (Thanks to 52bore for my Solid Pin)

Lyman 292 Grain 45 Cal

BACO PP Slick

54 Cal, Similiar to my Bullshop .50

 

[rodwha]

I can see all of your points for using Swiss since it is given you results that you attribute it to part of your success.But for a lot of us that never will be in your camp and our just hunters and sportsmen and keep within a majority of our shots at 100 yards and under Goex saves it,s purpose well.Within this range havin one powder over the other ain,t gonna make a difference on the outcome of our success.My hat is off to you for what you can accomplish.

Most certainly. In a muzzleloading rifle for hunting I’ve never felt the powder was quite so important. However in the small chambers of a revolver I see the importance, maybe not quite from the accuracy point but the power.

 

[cannonball1]

12 cents a shot more is not going to make me change from Swiss. I could probably reduce Swiss by 10% and get the same velocity as Goex and have less residue, then the per shot price would be closer to the same. Not all, but most of accuracy is counted in that certain velocity, not powder weight.

 

[FishDFly]

Interesting article in Muzzle Blasts this month about the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team and the need to shoot Swiss powder in the shotgun match.

Swiss shoots 75 feet per second faster than Goex in the shotguns. Swiss is needed to be competitive since the birds fly about 20 MPH faster than U.S. birds and are built more sturdy since they fly a lot faster.

So after reading here, and the magazine, there is not doubt that Swiss does bring merit for those who are serious about their shooting. It does provide a competitive edge when it comes to winning, cost is not incurred when the goal is 10s and not 9s.

 

[fleener]

Also keep in mind for the International teams when we went to Australia in 2017 for the long range matches that Swiss was the only powder available to us. Also this year at Bisley in the UK for the World match I think Swiss will be the only powder available as well.

It helps to practice and use what is available at the matches.

To take it even farther, we are also concerned about powder lot numbers. Different lot numbers of the same brand of powder will shoot differently.

When I buy a case of powder I always check the lot numbers to make sure they are all the same. I mark the tops of the lids so I can easily tell what lot I am using.

Fleener

 

[FishDFly]

"When I buy a case of powder I always check the lot numbers to make sure they are all the same. I mark the tops of the lids so I can easily tell what lot I am using."

My mentor use to carry his cans of powder on their sides when traveling. He was convinced that carrying the can upright that the fines would settle to the bottom of the can. When he arrived at a shoot he would shake the cans.

Some of the pistol shooters I know in Friendship buy their powder in bulk to address the problem you mentioned. I save my empty cans for him.

 

[fleener]

When I go to shoots, all my powder is already pre measured and in little plastic vials.

If I am going to a shoot for fun, I do not do this however.

Fleener

 

[FishDFly]

When I go to shoots, all my powder is already pre measured and in little plastic vials.

If I am going to a shoot for fun, I do not do this however.

Fleener

I do that the night before in the motel after dinner. Kkeeps me focused on whatEEPS M

When I go to shoots, all my powder is already pre measured and in little plastic vials.

If I am going to a shoot for fun, I do not do this however.

Fleener

Above, duh.


Okay, had to quit thinking and typing to place an order with Midway.

I pre-measure in plastic vials in the motel the night before the matches. Since I shoot pistol, I have a list for the next day for which pistol and the match number.

In the course of the week I shoot about 10 different pistols.

Pre-measuring eliminates stupid mistakes and saves a lot of time.

 

[fleener]

One thing about shooting pistols, they dont take up as much room as a rifle.

You pistol guys are a little soft I am thinking. Take a formal break for lunch at Friendship. Rifle line stays open. Or perhaps you and the shotgunners are just civilized.

Fleener

 

[Joemolf]

I’ve always been a GOEX guy. I hardly ever shoot any of the black powder subs. Also, I’ve never tried Swiss black powder even though I’ve seen numerous reports that it produces better accuracy, is cleaner burning and load for load yields higher and more consistent velocities than GOEX.

So after many years of resisting the lure of Swiss I decided to get some and see for myself. This is a report of my side-by-side comparison of Swiss and GOEX in the 2F and 3F granulations of each.

For this exercise I chose to use my TC Renegade with a .45 caliber 1:30” twist Green Mountain barrel and shoot full bore conicals. I chose this gun and bullet for three reasons; the gun wears a Simmons 4X ProDiamond shotgun scope to keep aiming errors to a minimum, it’s already zeroed in for the load I planned to shoot, and I’ve shot the gun and bullet enough to know what kind of accuracy can be expected.

I installed a new AMPCO nipple at the beginning the shooting session and followed the following procedures for the test:

1. Four targets were shot at 100 yards, with five shots on each target and a different powder used for each target. All shots were over a chronograph 10 feet from the muzzle.

2. The first shot on each target was from a cold clean barrel with a three to five minute cooling period between each of the following four shots.

3. The bore was wiped between each shot with both sides of a fresh patch lightly moistened with 91% Isopropyl alcohol - one stroke down and up with each side. The bore was fully cleaned between targets.

4. For the first shot on each target, the bullet was seated until it just touched the powder. Then a stop collar on the loading rod was locked in place 1/8” above the muzzle and the load compressed that one-eighth inch. The stop collar remained locked in that position for the following four shots to assure the consistent load compression. The stop collar was reset in this manner for each target.

5. Pre-weighed powder charges of 85 grains actual weight were used.

6. The bullets were flat nose conicals cast from pure soft lead then sized and lubed to .452 diameter. They were weight sorted to assure that all were between 464.0 and 464.5 grains, and inspected to assure all had undamaged bases with sharp corners.

7. A 1/2” diameter 1/8” thick unlubed wool wad was used under the base of the bullets.

8. Winchester #11 magnum percussion caps from the same tin were used.

9. Shots were from a bench using a Caldwell shooting rest under the foreend and a rabbit ear bag under the butt stock.

Here are the charges ready to be shot.

Here’s the shooting bench and range.

Here are the four targets.

Here are the cleaning patches that were used to wipe the bore between the fourth and fifth shot with each powder.

And here’s a summary of the results.

You may draw your own conclusions. It’s pretty clear that Swiss produces significantly higher velocities. I didn’t find a noticeable difference with respect to the degree of fouling produced by the two powders. However, that may be because I was wiping the bore between each shot. Results may be different with a long shot string without wiping. I’ll never know because I always wipe between shots.

With respect to accuracy potential, I found no significant difference between the two powders – at least not within my shooting ability or with this particular bullet and load. One day I’ll try a similar side-by-side comparison with patched balls in my .54 Great Plains flintlock.

I’ll likely be a GOEX guy forever. I like the stuff and I like supporting an American company.

When you tested these powders did you test Swiss Caviar or basic Swiss? There is a significant difference. Most don’t purchase Swiss Caviar because it costs a few bucks more but you get more shots because you need less powder. I hear people talking all the time Swiss basic if you will is very similar to Old Enysford Goex. Swiss caviar is a completely different granulation. Don’t get me wrong I like Goex too! But Swiss Caviar is the cats meow. You did a great job and are very thorough. I’m amazed at some people are so well structured you are obviously one of them. Let me us know if you used Swiss Caviar I’m thinking not. The only reason I informed about Swiss Caviar by Jim Finiches son they own Long Shooters in Texas. Jim Finch is a Cowboy shooting Champion and his son is incredible with his 1851Colt. I purchased my Swiss Caviar from Buffalo Arms. When Goex closed I preordered some Swiss Caviar from them so I’m set for now but I also have purchased The high end Goex from them as well. I load metalic cartridges with Goex only because it is cheaper 44-40, 45 Colt and.357. Though even with metallic cartridges swiss caviar according to the experts at the SAS is the way to go for accuracy and cleanliness. I have not been shooting unfortunately I hurt my back in July got surgery in late October along with my second bout of Covid and have had a hard recovery. Very frustrating especially being i love my muzzle loaders and haven’t been able to play with them. The weather hasn’t been the best but it never stopped me before. Any way again I like goex too but I think if you are performance minded Swiss Caviar is the way to go.
Respectfully
Joe

 

[Joemolf]

I don’t have any regular Swiss handy but I will post a picture of Swiss Caviar and regular Swiss. Caviar is like round pellets. Regular Swiss has the same granularity as Goex only I believe it has a more grayish color that I think is graphite from something I read.

 

[Joemolf]

Here are a few from my molds, Random stuff in my Photos. I have a BUNCH of PP as Well, Hunting and Target. Some PP Mixed in here

540 Grain BACO elliptical, and my 330 Grain.36 Cal LR Bullet (Should get this Barrel REALLY soon)

More Elliptical, and BACO PP Slicks in the back

485 Grain .50 Cal Hunting bullet, i killed my Elk with this Year

Fun 45

More fun 45

One of my Newer .50 Cal Bullets

45 cal

420 Grain 45 Cal

.45 Cal, Lyman Whitworth 480 Grain

385 Grain .45 Cal

50 Cal Bullshop Clone, i had this made in .54 Cal as well

Custom cupped base PP Mold i had BACO Make

Lyman Gould, i can pour this bullet Hollow Point, or Solid (Thanks to 52bore for my Solid Pin)

Lyman 292 Grain 45 Cal

BACO PP Slick

54 Cal, Similiar to my Bullshop .50

Absolutely beautiful!