Funky Powder

[Britsmoothy]

That is how I have always understood it. Hence my example of a sponge. It does not absorb water from the air, a vapour, but will in liquid form. Now some will there fore say a sponge is hygroscopic but how I understand the word it(the sponge) is not. Same for BP, before combustion.

B.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

The shooter was 80 years old. This was apparently a new gun for him. He dry balled a couple of times, dropped things, and had a generally tough outing, but once we got him lined out and shooting black powder he had a smile a mile wide.

The only thing we really had to watch was his safety. He really wanted to cap at the loading bench and then swing the gun past all the other shooters on the way to the shooting line. I had to stop him from doing that several times.

Yeah, it all makes sense. Glad ya straightened him out. Don't need anybody gettin' shot in the back from the loading table!

On another note, I find it amazin' that so many have so much time to argue about whether or not powder absorbs moisture, but ya never hear stories about how they help folks like we do.......

O-K fellas, ya'll can keep-on arguing about powder instead of commenting about the OP's story. Flame Suit ON, lol!

Take care Mr. Klatch & keep 'em in the black!

Dave
NRA CRSO, Shootist, Mentor, Competition Shooter & Hunter

 

[Britsmoothy]

The shooter was 80 years old. This was apparently a new gun for him. He dry balled a couple of times, dropped things, and had a generally tough outing, but once we got him lined out and shooting black powder he had a smile a mile wide.

The only thing we really had to watch was his safety. He really wanted to cap at the loading bench and then swing the gun past all the other shooters on the way to the shooting line. I had to stop him from doing that several times.

Yeah, it all makes sense. Glad ya straightened him out. Don't need anybody gettin' shot in the back from the loading table!

On another note, I find it amazin' that so many have so much time to argue about whether or not powder absorbs moisture, but ya never hear stories about how they help folks like we do.......

O-K fellas, ya'll can keep-on arguing about powder instead of commenting about the OP's story. Flame Suit ON, lol!

Take care Mr. Klatch & keep 'em in the black!

Dave
NRA CRSO, Shootist, Mentor, Competition Shooter & Hunter

Yes indeed, very praise worthy :hatsoff:

B.

 

[wayne terry]

Just got a reply from Schuetzen Powder talked to James kirkland.
Yes black powder is hygroscopic and gave me a nice quick three reference paper on it.
So there you have it two very large manufactures of black powder the people who do this for a living; state that their products are Hygroscopic.

Thanks CC for contacting Goex I was on that same track also you just beat me to the draw.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I agree that black powder is hygroscopic to an extent. All salts are. The difference is in their ability to withstand chemical break down in the presence of that environment. Some such substances can soak up atmospheric moisture and dry out again with the falling dew point. Some begin chemical degradation.

 

[leslie]

Where I live RH seldom if ever falls below 60%,so I guess black powder is hydroscopic which explains why priming powder goes to mush if left in the pan any length of time.It was good of the OP to help a fellow senior.

 

[Rifleman1776]

acclaimed expert on BP

What we need is more experts. :rotf: :dead:

 

[coloradoclyde]

Why?

I don’t really see any point in more experts. Those that “believe” BP is NOT hygroscopic are firmly entrenched in that belief. It appears that no amount of data, any evidence, or expert testimony will divert them from said belief.

From the end users stand point the hygroscopicity of Black Powder, Pyrodex or other propellants is of little consequence.

But for a manufacturer trying to weigh and mix exact proportions of product, to produce a uniform product”¦ it becomes a big deal.
:surrender:

 

[Scota4570]

Perhaps actually doing an experiment would be more productive than quoting others?

Get a quantity of powder, say 100 grains, weigh it. Leave it out in the open for a while, say a week. See if it gets heavier. I suspect the result will depend on the humidity.

I live in a very dry area and suspect that I would get minimal water absorption.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Perhaps actually doing an experiment would be more productive than quoting others?

Get a quantity of powder, say 100 grains, weigh it. Leave it out in the open for a while, say a week. See if it gets heavier. I suspect the result will depend on the humidity.

I live in a very dry area and suspect that I would get minimal water absorption.

On it!

 

[George]

To the board”¦

Anyone ever hear that old saw about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel?

I've been running an experiment to test whether BP is hygroscopic for 40+ years, collecting data whenever I can. No firm conclusions, yet, but some early indications:

1. I live in Kentucky where high humidity is a given, sometimes very high.

2. I've left guns of various types loaded for up to one year and they have all”¦all”¦ fired normally when tried.

3. I routinely carry flintlocks primed with 4F for many hours while hunting or trekking, in all conditions, including in the rain, and do not change the prime, but have never”¦never”¦ had one fail to fire from wet prime.

4. Even on the most humid or rainy days, if I clean the pan well after firing I never have the prime turn to soup.

5. If I don't clean the pan well, the prime will turn to soup even on some days when the humidity doesn't seem high.

6. Goex black powder of 2F, 3F and 4F granulation never clumps or appears moist in my cans, horns, flasks, always seem to pour about the same, even when loading in the rain.

7. I've stirred enough liquid water into a charge of BP to make it into a wet mud, laid a trail of dry powder to it and lit it, and the BP mud burned completely, leaving only dry ash behind.

So, although my experiment is not quite over, and I certainly don't want to jump to conclusions, I'm starting to think that if BP is hygroscopic it is so to such a small degree I don't need to be concerned about it. As old Albert said, it's a relative thing. I don't mind BP's being hygroscopic as long as it doesn't interfere with my shooting. :haha:

Spence

 

[zimmerstutzen]

About thirty years ago, I obtained a bulk container of original black powder rifle shells. (43 Remington) I broke some down to reload and by accident, left the powder from the cartridges in an open plastic bowl on top the loading cabinet. That plastic bowl of (approx. 1.5 fg) sat open in the bowl in a humid Arlington, Virginia Basement for over three years. It never turned to black soup, never caked, never turned any other color, no crystals grew out of it, and it stayed as it had always been right up to the day, I dumped it down the muzzle and fired it with no unusual delays or noticeable loss of power as compared to fresh modern powder. I did not soak it with gasoline, alcohol, or water to see what would happen. There was enough for about ten shots and it worked well. It worked better than my attempts to reload the Berdan primed cartridge cases with fresh primers and powder..

I dare anyone to try that with Pyrodex or trip 7.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Perhaps actually doing an experiment would be more productive than quoting others?

Get a quantity of powder, say 100 grains, weigh it. Leave it out in the open for a while, say a week. See if it gets heavier. I suspect the result will depend on the humidity.

I live in a very dry area and suspect that I would get minimal water absorption.

On it!

 

[coloradoclyde]

Make sure your scale is calibrated and
Have multiple test samples.

Be sure to:

Record hourly,
Temperature,
Humidity,
Barometric pressure readings.
Also make sure you test sample size is large enough to give a measureable result.

The most important thing is to make sure that you are measuring hygroscopicity and not the efficacy of corning, glazing, or the graphite coating...

Remember to provide a favorable testing environment for an environment without moisture will produce negative results.

Crushing or cracking the corns will speed up the test.

Good luck!
I await the results and testing data.

 

[Britsmoothy]

:rotf: it is in the shed covered up with paper in the scales pan. I will give it 24 hours and not touch the scales.
After seeing how quick the pan goes wet after a flash this test will do for me :thumbsup:

B.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

About thirty years ago, I obtained a bulk container of original black powder rifle shells. (43 Remington) I broke some down to reload and by accident, left the powder from the cartridges in an open plastic bowl on top the loading cabinet. That plastic bowl of (approx. 1.5 fg) sat open in the bowl in a humid Arlington, Virginia Basement for over three years. It never turned to black soup, never caked, never turned any other color, no crystals grew out of it, and it stayed as it had always been right up to the day, I dumped it down the muzzle and fired it with no unusual delays or noticeable loss of power as compared to fresh modern powder. I did not soak it with gasoline, alcohol, or water to see what would happen. There was enough for about ten shots and it worked well. It worked better than my attempts to reload the Berdan primed cartridge cases with fresh primers and powder..

I dare anyone to try that with Pyrodex or trip 7.

Zim,

I just had to wipe coffee off of my monitor, lol! Three YEARS in damp basement in an open container, a BOWL no less, with a HUGE amount of surface area & she still went BANG like nobody's business! LOL!

It often amazes me (as an Amateur Historian) to think that black powder was shipped to the Colonies in hydroscopic wooden kegs across a very WET OCEAN in wooden ships where rain water, sea water, urine and other "elements" were rollin'-around in the hold, and somehow it didn't absorb enough moisture to mis-fire. How did THAT happen?? LOL!

FWIW one of the BP clubs I shoot at runs entire matches in the POURING RAIN whilst underneath several 10' x 10' Easy-Up's, and not a single problem going BANG! But then again, the Pyrodex Pussies never show-up for those Shoots! I wonder why that is??

O-K, fuse lit, now wait for the BANG, lol!

Dave
Fellow Pour-er of the Holy Black that goes BOOOOOM

 

[wayne terry]

This the test that James kirkland from Schuetzen Powder gave me yesterday.
" Industry standard is to dry black powder to 0.7% moisture content. Normal is 0.1-0.3%.
Once a can is opened moisture will begin to be absorbed by the powder but only to a point then it reaches a relative saturation point, that is unless you pour water on it.
If you'd like to experiment, place 100 grams of black powder onto a scale at around 12:00 noon
and over the next 18 hours record the weight change over the next 18 hours and relative humidity. As the day turns to evening the powder will absorb moisture and become heaiver as humidity rises in the air. At some point in the night it will reach maximum saturation, then as humidity begins to go down the black powder will begin to release the moisture back into the air, it should go back down under the 0.7% level and possibly back to what it started as."

1 gram=15.4323584 grains

 

[Britsmoothy]

:rotf: it is in the shed covered up with paper in the scales pan. I will give it 24 hours and not touch the scales.
After seeing how quick the pan goes wet after a flash this test will do for me :thumbsup:

B.

Ok men, results are in! A 100grn of fresh powder left out all night in the shed covered with paper and in the scales pan it was weighed in has gained.......drum roll........
1/2 a grain! It now weighs 100&1/2grains!

So it is hygroscopic (but not worth diddly as far as I am concerned)but only just!

B :v

 

[coloradoclyde]

So what your saying is that dozens of historical writings going back hundreds of years, scientific, manufacturing and chemical books and papers, along with personal testimony from people actually manufacturing the stuff combined with my own personal experience and observations;

ARE ALL RIGHT! :hmm:

Amazing! :haha:

Thank you, Brit for the time and energy to hopefully put this question to bed. :bow:

 

[Rick Boylan]

op: op: op: