Forensic Identification for Flintlock Remains

[CoffeeMonger]

Merry Christmas all, I’ve recently been gifted the remains of a flintlock musket and I’d love to know the origins if possible. The only script remaining is the name J.Ridout (not Rideout). There is a little engraving on the hammer side plate. Also, the hammer is attached with a blacksmith made bolt, not a screw which may be original or more than likely a field repair. I’d love to have your thoughts. It’s a wall hanger for sure. Thank you.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Merry Christmas all, I’ve recently been gifted the remains of a flintlock musket and I’d love to know the origins if possible. The only script remaining is the name J.Ridout (not Rideout). There is a little engraving on the hammer side plate. Also, the hammer is attached with a blacksmith made bolt, not a screw which may be original or more than likely a field repair. I’d love to have your thoughts. It’s a wall hanger for sure. Thank you. View attachment 277402

So the rounded sideplate is very much a Brown Bess thing, BUT a lot of variations on Bess were known, plus a lot of private makers made very Bess-ish muskets. The flintlock lock looks like it was converted to percussion, as the pan and frizzen are gone, and the jaw seems to have an impact insert. A closeup photo of both the front and rear of the trigger guard will help a bit as well. The lock engraving is very much NOT British military, so this might have once been a privately owned fusil, perhaps of a military man, and thus it was ordered to resemble the full sized Bess of the rest of the army. OR it might once have been a Committee of Safety musket, which was vended after the war and then converted to percussion. Some of the colonies, Maryland for example, had armories with older Bess variations, and when the AWI started they took the useful parts and built them into working muskets. So you'd see what looks like a Brown Bess but then close up you'd fine non-British parts.

LD

 

[PathfinderNC]

No idea, but how in the world is it a “wall hanger”? It’s just bits and pieces.

 

[Loyer]

Would at least make an interesting shadow box display.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Merry Christmas all, I’ve recently been gifted the remains of a flintlock musket and I’d love to know the origins if possible. The only script remaining is the name J.Ridout (not Rideout). There is a little engraving on the hammer side plate. Also, the hammer is attached with a blacksmith made bolt, not a screw which may be original or more than likely a field repair. I’d love to have your thoughts. It’s a wall hanger for sure. Thank you. View attachment 277402

Let me know if you ever decide for it to leave your possession. I need the trigger guard for one musket and side plate for a different one. Both original.

 

[Millford_P]

I concur with the other guys, looks like the side plate and trigger guard are possibly from a brown bess (first model) but could be from any sort of "British-ish" musket or fusil. The lock looks to be much later to me... possibly 1820s or 1830s before it was converted to percussion in the 1840s/50s.

I can't see the shape of the butt stock too well, perhaps another photo showing another view with the buttplate would help. It could be the stock from a British musket, but right now looks like a 19th century American stock to me - at least from what's left!

My guess is that it's a 19th century Franken-fowler made from bits and pieces of older guns - probably brass furniture and barrel were from a Bess, imported lock was then fit to whatever stock the other pieces were already configured in. Who knows, but speculating is fun anyway!

 

[CoffeeMonger]

Thank you for all the replies! I now have the rest of the musket so as I get it cleaned up and “back together” I’ll post a follow up picture. The person I obtained it from had scavenged the pan and frizzen for other guns so those are lost. While the jaws have “something” clamped in, he did say that there were really no other signs that it had been converted since the pan, frizzen, and springs were all in place. Could it have been a flint alternative? It’s an intriguing find for sure and has been great fun researching the history around it. Cheers!

 

[Gtrubicon]

Thank you for all the replies! I now have the rest of the musket so as I get it cleaned up and “back together” I’ll post a follow up picture. The person I obtained it from had scavenged the pan and frizzen for other guns so those are lost. While the jaws have “something” clamped in, he did say that there were really no other signs that it had been converted since the pan, frizzen, and springs were all in place. Could it have been a flint alternative? It’s an intriguing find for sure and has been great fun researching the history around it. Cheers!

I’d love to see the pictures of your parts prior to you assembling. I don’t know a darned thing about this type of rifle but, I love to see the process. It’s an imagination thing.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

I’d love to see the pictures of your parts prior to you assembling. I don’t know a darned thing about this type of rifle but, I love to see the process. It’s an imagination thing.

I finally obtained the rest of the musket! Not convinced totally that it’s of French origin now that I have the barrel and what’s left of the stock. While cleaning the barrel, about 18” forward of the breach is a brass inlaid rectangle with concave sides. Totally baffled by this one. Working now on cleaning and trying to figure out the best way to stabilize it.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I finally obtained the rest of the musket! Not convinced totally that it’s of French origin now that I have the barrel and what’s left of the stock. While cleaning the barrel, about 18” forward of the breach is a brass inlaid rectangle with concave sides. Totally baffled by this one. Working now on cleaning and trying to figure out the best way to stabilize it.

The lockplate looks strongly along the lines of a cheap “trade lock” possibly Belgian. The trigger guard is very English in stying. And there is a very Brown Bess style forward pipe, entry pipe and side piece. The stock does have a little bit of French musket influence. Without any further information I would think it could possibly be an American (post Revolutionary war) militia style musket.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Interesting put together piece. Could we get a picture of the barrel tang and the first three or four inches of the barrel above where the lock sits? Since the trigger guard, side plate, and ramrod pipes are British I assumed the barrel would be but now I question that since it looks to have a bayonet lug that's underneath. Lock is late 1700s or early 1800s. Stock is American. I'm wondering if the barrel is French.

 

[springfield art]

No idea, but how in the world is it a “wall hanger”? It’s just bits and pieces.

You have a point there!

 

[CoffeeMonger]

You have a point there!

It’s getting closer to a hanger!

Interesting put together piece. Could we get a picture of the barrel tang and the first three or four inches of the barrel above where the lock sits? Since the trigger guard, side plate, and ramrod pipes are British I assumed the barrel would be but now I question that since it looks to have a bayonet lug that's underneath. Lock is late 1700s or early 1800s. Stock is American. I'm wondering if the barrel is French.

 

[Flintlock1640]

It’s getting closer to a hanger!

Barrel isn't French. Hard to say what it was originally the way it was mangled.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Barrel isn't French. Hard to say what it was originally the way it was mangled.

Is that a remnant of a cross scepter about 2ish inches forward of the tang? Something is X shaped there.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

Is that a remnant of a cross scepter about 2ish inches forward of the tang? Something is X shaped there.

For this shot I used a flashlight to highlight some areas and possibly show a little depth with the shadows. I didn’t see an x in my view though.

Just putting this out there, I have no interest in trying to make this better than it is. It’s rough. I’m not looking to increase its value or represent it in any other way than as it is. I’m having a blast learning all about this specimen, realizing that it was likely either smashed against a tree to keep it from being used again, or smashed over someone’s head. It was found in Louisiana, after all. Just having fun learning. I have a direct ancestor whose whole family were Jacobites, then one of them fought the British at the siege of Charleston in 1781. Then we had family in Louisiana before and during the civil war. Knowing fully that there is no proof of any known family member having used this gun, it’s cool to see its movement matching with the same eras and places my family has trod. Cheers!

 

[Clark Badgett]

For this shot I used a flashlight to highlight some areas and possibly show a little depth with the shadows. I didn’t see an x in my view though.

Just putting this out there, I have no interest in trying to make this better than it is. It’s rough. I’m not looking to increase its value or represent it in any other way than as it is. I’m having a blast learning all about this specimen, realizing that it was likely either smashed against a tree to keep it from being used again, or smashed over someone’s head. It was found in Louisiana, after all. Just having fun learning. I have a direct ancestor whose whole family were Jacobites, then one of them fought the British at the siege of Charleston in 1781. Then we had family in Louisiana before and during the civil war. Knowing fully that there is no proof of any known family member having used this gun, it’s cool to see its movement matching with the same eras and places my family has trod. Cheers!

Oh, I never assumed you had any ulterior motives. Some do, but that usually shows up in their first response to information provided. I just think its cool trying to figure out what something might have once been. This new picture shows the X I was seeing as being just a couple of scratches. It’s still a cool grouping of parts.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

I concur with the other guys, looks like the side plate and trigger guard are possibly from a brown bess (first model) but could be from any sort of "British-ish" musket or fusil. The lock looks to be much later to me... possibly 1820s or 1830s before it was converted to percussion in the 1840s/50s.

I can't see the shape of the butt stock too well, perhaps another photo showing another view with the buttplate would help. It could be the stock from a British musket, but right now looks like a 19th century American stock to me - at least from what's left!

My guess is that it's a 19th century Franken-fowler made from bits and pieces of older guns - probably brass furniture and barrel were from a Bess, imported lock was then fit to whatever stock the other pieces were already configured in. Who knows, but speculating is fun anyway!

These are the pics I have of the remains of the butt end. It’s becoming more and more obvious that it was slammed against a tree or over someone’s head as the main fracture is right at the breach. Whoever was swinging it, was holding it by the barrel impacted just shy of the tang. OUCH! From the pic you’ll see it appears there was a leather pad tacked to the top which I’ve never seen in online pics. I welcome your thoughts on this but design.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

These are the pics I have of the remains of the butt end. It’s becoming more and more obvious that it was slammed against a tree or over someone’s head as the main fracture is right at the breach. Whoever was swinging it, was holding it by the barrel impacted just shy of the tang. OUCH! From the pic you’ll see it appears there was a leather pad tacked to the top which I’ve never seen in online pics. I welcome your thoughts on this but design.

 

[CoffeeMonger]

Oh, I never assumed you had any ulterior motives. Some do, but that usually shows up in their first response to information provided. I just think it’s cool trying to figure out what something might have once been. This new picture shows the X I was seeing as being just a couple of scratches. It’s still a cool grouping of parts.

Maybe, possibly, in time… I can find the missing bits to mount up together and display as part of what helped make America great the first time. Haha who knows! Thanks for the comment!