flintlock won,t fire

[silverfox]

Need help a buddy got a TOW rifle, good looking thing but at the range the other day it would only (work) 1 out of 10 times. The flint hits the frizzen about 3/4 or higher but half the time no spark and the frizzen didn,t open. I not being a flinter (yet) think the hammer spring is weak. Can we put a wedge in the spring to get a little more power. Sorry don,t know lock mfg. It,s purty raised engraved an all. All help accepted as we are new to this ignition system. Also what few sparks we got seemed to fall infront of the pan. Thanks for any ideas. Fox

 

[GobblerKnob]

Based only on your explanation, it sounds like the lock may need to be tuned somewhat. I would definitely polish the place where the frizen comes in contact with the frizzen spring. You didn't mention if this was a kit gun or not, but it's possible there needs to be some wood removed from the lock mortise that is interferring with the operation of the main spring and/or hammer. Without seeing it first hand, the problem is difficult to diagnose.
Rick

 

[silverfox]

hello gobbler thank,s for the reply. The gun is custom made nice looking it may have been used several years. I told him it could use some polishing at that spot and also to polish all moving part inside the lock. Forgot about the wood rubbing thanks. We'll work on it and let you know how it works out. Then I'll get me one of :crackup:things to play with.
From were moses lost his sandals Fox :RO:

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Hey Silverfox,

Mr. G. is right, one really needs to look at it for a better diagnosis. My guess and I say guess is that the frizzen is too soft or has lost its case hardening, and possibly what Mr. G. says about the wood interference. The other item could also be that the frizzen flip-over itself is too stiff. A good flinter does not need very much frizzen resistance to work well. If you have ever used flint and steel to make a fire, take the frizzen out and see if you can get consistent good sparks. If you have ever shot a percussion, then the hammer should cock about the same as a percussion. The geometry of the lock/frizzen could also be off. Make sure that the flint is making a glancing blow against the frizzen when it makes a full stroke. That can be adjusted by putting the flint in bevel up or down and short flint verses longer flint. Those combinations give you a wealth of adjustments. Hope I didn't ramble too much. Let us know what happens
Flintlocks Forever
Lar :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

Some things that you should look at:
* The flint should be razor blade sharp. If the flint is rounded or broken back and jagged it will not produce good sparks.

* With the frizzen closed and the cock (hammer) on half cock, the flint should be within a papers thickness away from touching the frizzen.

* With the frizzen closed and the cock at half cock, the flint should appear ready to make a shearing or downward glancing blow at the frizzen. The top/bottom edge (unbeveled surface) should NOT be pointed directly at ("normal" or 90 degrees to) the face of the frizzen.

* With the frizzen open and the cock in the fully down position, the tip of the flint should be close to being centered in the pan.

* The flint should be sticking out of the cock far enough so the top cock screw doesn't hit the frizzen as the cock is falling.

* Try inverting the flint. If it is bevel (chamfer) up, try it bevel down.

* Lubricate the Frizzen hinge joint and the place where the cam surface contacts the Frizzen Spring on the outside of the lock.

Does the Frizzen have a little wheel where it contacts the Frizzen Spring? If so, then oil it.

* If the face of the Frizzen has horizontal gouges on it's face, they will keep the Frizzen from opening, and they will break or dull your Flint.

Tell us as much about the lock as you can to help us determine what kind it is, and who made it.

 

* With the frizzen closed and the cock (hammer) on half cock, the flint should be within a papers thickness away from touching the frizzen.

Zonie,
I've seen this advice given by others before and it always leaves me scratching my head. The amount of space between the flint edge and the frizzen at half cock is a result of where in the tumbler's rotation the half cock notch is which can vary greatly between different models of locks. I don't understand how this measurement relates to lock performance particularily since it will vary from lock to lock :hmm:

Cody

 

Cody,

what zonie is describing is a good way to make sure you have the correct length of flint. If at half cock the flint will not allow the frizzen to close completely, the flint will strike to high on the frizzen when falling from full cock. The further away the flint at half cock the lower it will strike the frizzen when falling from full cock.
The correct width of flint should match the width of the frizzen, the correct placement of a flint in the jaws of the cock should be just off the face of the frizzen. This should allow the flint to drop true to the pan if the geometry of the cock or frizzen is correct as well as giving the flint the longest cut against the frizzen.

 

[tg]

Good point Cody my Queen Annes and Chambers Colonial can have a 1/4" gap and still spark like an arc welder....makes it handier to use a hammer stall as well.....I have had several guns with Silers that did do better when the flint lay close to the steel.

 

[swank]

Zonie,
your suggestions reminded me of something I had been wondering about regarding my rifle. I get outstanding spark and exceptionally quick ignition, however I have noticed some marks on the frizzen face including some slight horizontal striations. Since the flint does chip off a small piece of steel with each firing, my question is how much wear is normal. Should I worry about these noticeable marks since the frizzen is still sparking well or would it be wise of me to harden the frizzen now as I have seen mentioned on other threads. What, generally speaking is the expected life of a frizzen understanding that the quality/hardness of the metal would be a big variable.
Thanks, Brad

 

[silverfox]

Howdy What a great group you guys are, lots of good info. lets see. Take the frizzen off and try to make a fire good idea, check flint for glancing blow it looks like a glancing blow. Polish the bearing surface at frizzen spring is being done. Also will have interlock surfaces polished. Will check cock screw to see if we contact frizzen hope not. Frizzen surface scratchs were vertical but cover 80 percent of frizzen from top to bottom. Who made the lock I don't remember any marks but the lock and lock plate are about twice as thick as normal convex (curved) and highly engraved frizzen also. They look as fancy as any I have seen anyware. The gun belongs to a police officer and finding one when you want one takes time as we all know so it may be a day or two before I get another look at the lock. Thanks for all the info. Fox :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

Swank, IMO if the Frizzen is making a lot of sparks and the flint isn't being damaged, be happy.
I wouldn't think of trying to carburize and reharden a Frizzen that's working well. You might want to use a dry whetstone or a wet one with water to try to remove some of the cross frizzen marks tho. Don't use oil of any kind on the frizzen face.
Stone in the same direction that the flint will fall.
A good, properly hardened frizzen should last for many thousands of shots.

Fox:
The comment about the top cock screw hitting the Frizzen was made because I once saw a Flintlock which had too short of a flint installed. Because it was too short, it stood about 5/16 off of the frizzen face at the half cock position. During firing, as the cock fell, the screw hit the frizzen just after the flint did. This started to push the frizzen back which lifted it off of the flint resulting in no spark and no ignition.

Oh, speaking of oil on the frizzen face, you might try using acetone, alcohol or other degreasers on it before shooting.
A lot of people do oil their frizzen faces to prevent rust which is good, but oil can keep the flint from biting into the metal and cause it to skid if it is not removed before shooting.

As for flintlocks which work better when they have large spaces between the flint and frizzen at half cock, it sounds like just another quirk one must know about for that gun.
As with everything else about Black Powder Muzzleloaders, each one is different, almost like people.

 

the correct placement of a flint in the jaws of the cock should be just off the face of the frizzen.

This could perhaps make sence if every lock maker put their half cock notch in the tumbler at the exact same place in the tumblers rotation. However, this is not the case. To demonstrate, take a lock, any lock, and fit the flint as you suggest. Without moving the flint in the jaws, dissassemble the lock and solder a small shim in the bottom of the half cock notch where the tip of the sear contacts it and reassemble the lock. Now the flint is considerably farther from the frizzen at half cock however the geometry and therefore the locks performance has not changed. Since there are many different kinds of locks made by many different lock makers all of whom are free to put the half cock notch wherever they like (within mechanical limits of course) I don't see how a preset distance from the flint edge to the frizzen @ half cock could apply to ALL locks.

 

[Grenadier1758]

One other quick comment. You don't have to tighten the screws holding the lock together. You don't need to have to use an impact tool to take the lock out. The screws for the lock internals should be snug and the main lock bolts should also be tightened to the slightly snug so they won't back up. It the screws are overtightened, the lock parts will bind and the hammer throw may appear weak. You have had plenty of good advice so far.

Mike
Private Grenadier
First of Foote

 

[roundball]

[quote
This could perhaps make sence if every lock maker put their half cock notch in the tumbler at the exact same place in the tumblers rotation. However, this is not the case. To demonstrate, take a lock, any lock, and fit the flint as you suggest. Without moving the flint in the jaws, dissassemble the lock and solder a small shim in the bottom of the half cock notch where the tip of the sear contacts it and reassemble the lock. Now the flint is considerably farther from the frizzen at half cock however the geometry and therefore the locks performance has not changed. Since there are many different kinds of locks made by many different lock makers all of whom are free to put the half cock notch wherever they like (within mechanical limits of course) I don't see how a preset distance from the flint edge to the frizzen @ half cock could apply to ALL locks. [/quote]

:hmm: :hmm:
Maybe I'm not seeing things clearly but the end result would still be the same wouldn't it...regardless of variances in tumbler's notches, they are what they are, and when you position the flint at half cock, it's being positioned with that particular lock's hammer at that particular tumbler's half cock notch isn't it?

ie: if in your shim example the hammer was farther away from the frizzen, I'd still position the flint's edge so it was close to the frizzen face, nullifying (compensating) for any concerns about tumbler notches...

 

As you suggest many things take effect here, the angle of the cock in relation to the frizzen. Also the angle of the frizzen face. Some frizzens have more curve then others. However I have yet to have a lock that I could not place a flint in while at the half cock that was not just of the face of the frizzen, granted some a little farther then others, I don

 

However I have yet to have a lock that I could not place a flint in while at the half cock that was not just of the face of the frizzen, granted some a little farther then others, I don't think there is any hard set rule as to the distance,,, its just general using the TAR rule IMO you want it as close as you can get and still have a good angle .

Captchee,
Perhaps my example came up short of making my point. However, it would appear that you agree with me and have done a much better job of making the point. If I'm miss-useng your quote I appologize but what I read you saying is that some of your flints end up "a little farther than others" and "it's just a general rule". My point exactly. The original advice given was the edge of the flint a papers thickness from the frizzen, or something to that effect. To me, that's a pretty specific amount and I was only trying to say that some locks will require more, just as you have found with your locks.

Cody

 

All locks do not position the flint perfectly. All flints do not come in the exact same lengths. All lock jaws do not hold the flint at exactly the same angle. Siler locks do not aim the flint at the center of the pan, they still work! My L&R aims the flint at the center of the pan, holds the flint at exactly the proper point against the frizzen has a massive mainspring and still only sparks a half dozen times before requiring a new flint (at least I can get a mointh of use our of the old flint in one of my Silers!).

Flint position is one of those things you do not really pay attention too untill something goes wrong, and it isn't important unless the lock refuses to operate.

I position my flints just clear of the frizen because often the top jaw of the cock will brush the frizen in the striking arch INSTEAD OF THE FLINT! This is also the reason some locks require the flint to be bevel down or bevel up. Have we tried the bevel up, bevel down thing yet? Look at a book full of origionals with their origional flints in place. They will be positioned in a variety of ways, whatever works for the individual gun.

This gets really problematic it you are using a thick flint that is also short. This allows the top jaw to be very high and the angle of the flint bad at the same time. The flint may touch the frizzen at the start of the arch for a fraction of an inch, then the jaw pushes the frizzen away from the flint.

Just be sure you try the lock in slow motion, holding the cock as it archs. Make sure you are getting full contact of the flint against the frizen and not using the top jaw to brush the frizen half way through the arch. I have had some that actually allowed the top jaw screw to smack the frizzen if the flint was not bevel up. I have one off brand Spanish atrocity thet required a replacement screw in the top jaw so it would clear the frizzen.

:results:

 

well mmm my silers point true, as dose my L&R. Falseears, Davis did not and i fixed/ changed it so it did ,,, i think he said he was 100 shots now with the same flint , i am really impressed with that davis lock , i wounder if they are all that good ?

any way alineing the flint as above is a rule of thumb i have had very good luck with and if i cant get a flint to aline as stated, i find one that will.
in the end you just gotta love a flintlock , each are diffrent, each have there own personalities and qurks . it all boils down to getting to know the one you have . Kind like the old wife ..... OH!!! ouch! ouch ,,, ok , ok not like the wife , not at all like the wife :master:

 

My L&R aims the flint at the center of the pan, holds the flint at exactly the proper point against the frizzen has a massive mainspring and still only sparks a half dozen times before requiring a new flint

Ghost, If this is an L&R model that has a cam on the frizzen spring this could be causing the problem. With the frizzen closed, check and see where the frizzen toe is on the cam. It should be just a hair forward (toward muzzle) of the apex of the cam. If the spring was misplaced too far back (toward the butt), this will put the frizzen toe forward of the apex and cause it to have to "climb a hill" before it breaks over and the frizzen snaps open. This condition will put way too much stress on your flint and your lock will be much better at makeing gravel than sparks. It doesn't have to be out by much to make a big difference. If you find that the frizzen toe is farther from the cam apex than it should be, (1/32" out of spec is plenty to cause grief) you can file the back of the cam moving the apex forward closer to the toe. This will make the cam shorter. Preferably, you can just file the cam off completely leaving the spring flat just like most other locks. Just something to check.

Cody

 

[Zonie]

Speaking of the Cock at half cock, the frizzen closed and the flint just clear of the frizzen face, this is only a place to start.
It has nothing to do with lock geometry or half notch positions in the tumbler.

As it is impossible to align the flint properly at full cock or with the cock all the way down because there is nothing to serve as a plane of reference to "square up" the flint with the frizzen the idea of setting the flint at half cock is presented.

The flint should strike the frizzen across its full width. To do this, one has to know where the face of the frizzen is going to be when the flint hits it before one tightens the jaw screw.

This is the only real reason for saying the edge of the flint should be about one paper thickness away from the frizzen when the cock is at half cock.