Flintlock Plaines Rifles.

[plmeek]

Makes some sense, except military rifles weren't expected to be reloaded and fired as fast nor as frequently as a musket, i.e. they weren't used for volley fire.

The HF 1803 still had a forearm of wood that could be grasped rather than just holding onto the barrel.

And then by the Civil War, there were half stock carbines used by cavalry, the style of which continued on into the cartridge era.

One little tidbit, during the Civil War Horace E. Dimick of St. Louis supplied hundreds of his half stock "plains rifles" to the Western Sharpshooters, Fourteenth Regiment Missouri Infantry.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I do know that when I'm firing a lot of blanks at reenactments, the barrel gets very hot in my full stocked Long Land Pattern Musket at about the 10th shot. I even try to avoid the pins as they get so hot that its difficult to grasp the stock.

 

[longcruise]

Even a fullstock lacking a handguard would probably require careful handling. My halfstock guns get get pretty warm during five shot relays.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Considering so many here laud the flintlock system and constantly espouse its superiority to the “craplock per-suck-tion” guns, seems so strange how all the worlds militaries and virtually every contemporary maker of the time were so rapid to change to the new cap systems?

 

[tenngun]

Not strange at all. They adopted breechloaders as soon as practicable. Bolt action and simi and full autos as years went by. But its all’s passing fad.( notice I didn’t say flash in the pan, ye heathen) I have faith the world will return to its senses in the by and by.

 

[nkbj]

Militaries could have had something mighty interesting long range sniper rifles if the introduction of percussion caps hadn't come along so soon.

 

[Zonie]

Considering so many here laud the flintlock system and constantly espouse its superiority to the “craplock per-suck-tion” guns, seems so strange how all the worlds militaries and virtually every contemporary maker of the time were so rapid to change to the new cap systems?

Not strange at all.
The percussion cap system had several advantages:

It is considerably better at dealing with rain than a flintlock.
Wind won't blow away the priming powder while the user is priming the pan on a flintlock.
There is no flint to wear out and need replacing.

 

[afishhunter]

except military rifles weren't expected to be reloaded and fired as fast nor as frequently as a musket, i.e. they weren't used for volley fire.

Don't bet anything you do not desire to lose on that.

Volly Fire was still common during the Civil War.
An un-rifled musket was rare.
My guess is over 99% of the long arms issued on both sides were rifled muskets.

 

[rich pierce]

Musket caps are easier to handle and hotter than teeny ones. I’d hate to have to fumble with a #11 cap in a battle situation.

 

[tenngun]

I was at Wilson creek battle field some years ago and watched a shooting demo. There was a shooter with a Hall, a doubled barrel ml shot gun and a Springfield rifled musket.
Many of the Arkansas- Missouri boys had own personal guns, while the federal troops, also mostly Missouri boys, had rifled or smooth bore government issued muskets.
The Hall was real fast and the shot gun gave a quick second shot, but I think shooting cartridge I could shoot a flint smoothie faster then percussions. Most of the battle was fought well within smoothie range.

 

[Rudyard]

Military generally didn't adopt percussion as soon as it improuved .When there are millions of good well understood flint arms in store and no immediate need to up date it makes sense to use what they have and gradually update convert or make new .Same being true for most sportsmen's needs . If generally the percussion has its merits only the keenest well heeled shooter sought the latest .Bit like fashions & I pads (Whatever they are )

Enough flint guns survived unaltered since not every one saw need to change, lucky break for collectors eh. The NZ Militia forces still used flint muskets even on active service into the 1860s .
I have lost Deer as they saw me and needed no more than the priming flash ere the ball reached a hastily voided space. Bit like Forsyth's ducks . Of course there being no closed seasons they graze at 50 mile an hour and tend to be on the spooky side, Accordingly I use my old two grouve percussion in the Roar mostly .If generally stay with flint or earlier normally . Regards Rudyard

 

[plmeek]

except military rifles weren't expected to be reloaded and fired as fast nor as frequently as a musket, i.e. they weren't used for volley fire.

Don't bet anything you do not desire to lose on that.

Volly Fire was still common during the Civil War.
An un-rifled musket was rare.
My guess is over 99% of the long arms issued on both sides were rifled muskets.

We were discussing military rifles such as the HF 1803, the 1807 Contract Rifle, the 1814 Contract Rifle, and the 1817 Contract Rifle, not the rifled musket. The military rifles I was referring to were shot with a patched round ball (the patch could be fabric or paper) and had smaller windage than the military musket. Therefore, it was slower to reload than the musket and more difficult to reload once fouling began to build up.

The rifled musket and its Minie ball is another animal altogether. The Minie ball is smaller than the bore of the rifled musket, and is therefore, easier to load. It does not require any patching material as the hollow base and skirt is designed to expand and fill the rifling in the bore. It could be loaded as fast as a smoothbore musket. And yes, it was still used in volley fire during the Civil War.

The Minie ball and rifled musket had devastating effects during the Civil War and changed battlefield tactics and the nature of warfare. After the Civil War, armies no longer lined up in long lines facing each other and fired volleys as they had for the previous couple hundred years.

Another impact of the rifled musket, along with the cap and ball pistol, was the change in terminology in regards to the size of the bullet and bore. In the day, guns that shot patched round balls were referred to by the size of the ball they shot. The term used was "balls to the pound", meaning the size of ball was determined by how many it took to weigh a pound. The bore ID of the gun was larger to allow for patching material and the buildup of fouling. The difference between the bore ID and ball OD was called windage. The windage in military muskets was usually on the order of .04" to .06" as compared to the windage in civilian rifles of .01" to .02".

Cap-and-ball pistols and the rifled musket with its Minie ball did not use a patch and there was no windage. With their development, the use of the term "caliber" became the norm, and it referred to the ID of the bore rather than the size of the ball or bullet. This convention was solidified with the development of cartridge arms.

 

[rich pierce]

Getting far from original topic, but knowledgeable posts.

 

[tenngun]

Military generally didn't adopt percussion as soon as it improuved .When there are millions of good well understood flint arms in store and no immediate need to up date it makes sense to use what they have and gradually update convert or make new .Same being true for most sportsmen's needs . If generally the percussion has its merits only the keenest well heeled shooter sought the latest .Bit like fashions & I pads (Whatever they are )

Enough flint guns survived unaltered since not every one saw need to change, lucky break for collectors eh. The NZ Militia forces still used flint muskets even on active service into the 1860s .
I have lost Deer as they saw me and needed no more than the priming flash ere the ball reached a hastily voided space. Bit like Forsyth's ducks . Of course there being no closed seasons they graze at 50 mile an hour and tend to be on the spooky side, Accordingly I use my old two grouve percussion in the Roar mostly .If generally stay with flint or earlier normally . Regards Rudyard

Shooting a round ball limits shots to around a hundred yards. Shooting mid range is around the 1600 fps. Most ball shot at around 1600 fps will slow to around 1000- 1100 fps at a hundred yards. Average velocity is around 12- 1300 fps. A hundred yards is three hundred feet. So a ball should travel one hundred yards in around 1/4 of a second. .25. If you add .1 second to fire time from a flinter that’s .35 second. A slow flinter might add .2 even .3(?).
I wonder that a standing deer you could hit in .25 gets out of the way in .55 second.

 

[nkbj]

Would flintlock plains rifles be ill suited to long range shooting on "the plains"?

A flintlock musket fitted with rifled barrel and long range sights would be an interesting project to see what could be done. Would probably need to scale the bullets down to around 20 bore to get a thicker barrel wall. Could alter .58 minie molds to remove the lube grooves, strengthen the skirts and make paper patched bullets.

 

[tenngun]

The development of conical was primarily post invention of flintlock. Long range conicals were developed during ml times. The ignition shouldn’t make much of a difference except an adjustment to charge.
There is a boy on you tube with a rifled musket shooting at six hundred yards and in a few shot starts hitting his target.