Flintlock pistol for deer...Opinions/Comments?

[Blackpowdersmoke]

Hello all. I am considering purchasing a flintlock pistol for deer hunting as Pennsylvania now allows us to use ML hanguns in .50 or larger for deer hunting. I have decided on flint because I would be able to use it in either our early ML season (flint or perc. allowed), or our late (flintlock only) season. I'm NOT going to spend a pile of money on a custom built gun because it will probably see very limited use, more than likely as a back up gun or for that very close, "gimmee" shot at 25 yds. or less. That said, I'm leaning towards a Pedersoli Bounty Hunter or a Traditions Trapper. I like the Bounty because I like the Bounty's longer barrel for more velocity (and hopefully better accuracy) as well as Pedersoli's reputation for quality. The Bounty is about at the top end of what I want to spend. I like the Trapper as it would be less cumbersome provided it has acceptable accuracy and sufficient energy to take a deer at distances of 25+ yds. with it's shorter barrel. I'm not concerned about being PERIOD CORRECT...I just want a flintlock pistol that functions properly and reliably and that I can expect reasonable accuracy from and by reasonable I mean that I should be able to get 3-4" groups at 25 yds. Any comments/opinions or personal experience appreciated. Thanks,...BPS

 

[tv_racin_fan]

I read an interesting article about deer hunting with a "Bounty".

The guy worked up a load he was certain had enough energy for deer. (think it was like 70grains FFg and a PRB) He found the recoil very tough to handle at that load so he made some saddle bags to hang on the barrel with about 1 1/2lb of weight to help. Believe he took a 90lb doe.

Accuracy is on YOU. Mostly about how consistent you are with loading as a decent muzzleloader will be as capable as a more modern firearm.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/blackpowder-slug-guns-the-mitchell-gun.php Check out how "anal" some guys can be in pursuit of accuracy. (not that there is anything wrong with being "anal" about every single thing when 1 hole accuracy is the goal) Consistency is the key to accuracy.

I like the "Bounty" myself.. in fact I am modifying a CVA/Deer Creek handgun into my own version of the "Bounty".

Couple guys on another forum have killed deer with 1858 Remington clones. I intend to try that one as well, I intend to try that after I kill one with my Ruger Old Army.

 

[Jim Evans]

Read this post on the The Bounty On page 2 he said he used 50 grs fff.
At Flintlock Etc they are $400.,is that the price you got on your search?

 

[gl1200a]

I have the Trapper.
In competent hands (not mine) the accuracy far exceeds my expectations.
My buddy installed a White Lightning liner in it shortly after getting it and deepened the pan a tad. It's very fast. Flint life is very good in it. Seems it doesn't matter how beat up the flint is it goes off well.
Just so happens were going to be chronographing some guns today and this is one of them. If your interested in the numbers I'll be glad to post them.

 

[Dphar]

I have the Trapper.
In competent hands (not mine) the accuracy far exceeds my expectations.
My buddy installed a White Lightning liner in it shortly after getting it and deepened the pan a tad. It's very fast. Flint life is very good in it. Seems it doesn't matter how beat up the flint is it goes off well.
Just so happens were going to be chronographing some guns today and this is one of them. If your interested in the numbers I'll be glad to post them.

Please do.
I would like to know how it shoots with the fast twist barrel and heavy loads.
Modern ML pistol barrels are invariably overtwisted for the PRB and hunting.
I usually use rifle twist barrels for pistols.

Dan

 

[rafterob]

As far as accuracy, the Trapper is as good as anything and a stout enough load combo could be worked up. The Bounty would be a better choice for your intended use. It is however, a bit unwieldy. That can be managed with sufficient practice.

 

[Richard J.]

Have shot deer with the trapper percussion and a flintlock. Our whole family carry them. Have shot them to 50 yards. Perfer to shoot a lot closer. They will do the job as long as you practice with them. We use 45 and 50 gr. of FFFg in ours. These are 50 cal. This load is the most accurate for these pistols.

RJ

 

[boar]

My grandson(silent sniper) shot a 200lb boar at 15yards with a .54 RB out of a Pedersoli flinter pistol. It went clear through, hog went 15 yards and down. He was using 60 grains 2ff if I remember right. He killed a groundhog with it at 55 yards. This was the 20th of June 201I. In Jackson Michigan at Ted Nungents Ranch. Dilly

 

[gl1200a]

With Goex 3f .495 ball and .018 ticking patch.
30gr 779fps
40gr 865fps
45gr 885fps

Swiss 3f
30gr 800fps
40gr 905fps
45gr 971fps

Now, if you want to drop some cash for a pistol that would drop probably anything in North America, my buddy just completed the Chambers flint pistol. .54cal, 13" barrel.
The numbers really shocked me.
Swiss 3f .530 ball
At 45gr 1010fps
At 60gr 1162fps!!!!!!

 

[Dphar]

With Goex 3f .495 ball and .018 ticking patch.
30gr 779fps
40gr 865fps
45gr 885fps

Swiss 3f
30gr 800fps
40gr 905fps
45gr 971fps

Now, if you want to drop some cash for a pistol that would drop probably anything in North America, my buddy just completed the Chambers flint pistol. .54cal, 13" barrel.
The numbers really shocked me.
Swiss 3f .530 ball
At 45gr 1010fps
At 60gr 1162fps!!!!!!

Thanks.
I used to get 969 from 60 gr of FFF Dupont from a 54 flint. Barrel 10" with a TOW hooked flint patent breech, 66" twist. I would break 1000 with Swiss I am sure. It was nicely accurate as with this load 2-2.5" at 25 yards.
I had a short barreled 50 cal flint 5" IIRC that would make just over 800 with 45-50 gr of FFF.
I have a pair of flint pistols, 54 with 66 twist. I should check these some day. Maybe next summer.
Dan

 

[mjulihn]

I think the Trapper in .50 with a proper load would serve you well. Found my "previously owned" capper with a perfect bore for a price well below retail for a new one. :v

 

[tv_racin_fan]

Dan.. so in your opinion a cut down 1-48 rifle barrel ought to do ok for a pistol? Nearly everyone else has said it is a waste of time and effort to cut down such a slow twisted barrel for a pistol.

I'm looking at possibly an 18inch barrel.

 

[LaBonte]

Not Dan but when folks say that I just shake my head in wonder.
1) There were a lot of original SMOOTHBORE pistols, including most dueling pistols (some were rfled and some had partial aka hidden rifling). So if your were to follow the logic that only quick twist barrels are accurate then the smoothies wouldn't shoot worth a a darn and that just ain't so.

2) Like Dan I have had pistols made with rifle twist and when you find the right load combo they can shoot as accurately as you can hold. One was 9" long 1-66" cut off from a Douglas Barrel back in the 70's with a Griffith Hawken style percussion patent breech and the other was an 8" Bill Large 1-48" with a flint breech. Both shot as good as I could hold on out to 50-60 yards. the longest distance I personally would ever shoot at anything with them snd for hunting I'd set a distance of no more than 25 yards.

 

[tv_racin_fan]

That was more or less my opinion.. but then I aint no expert, nor even close.

Now if I can just find a breech plug that will work with the tang I have or find a pair of plugs to work with a tang I can fit.

What I have is a percussion CVA or Deer Creek Hawkenish pistol. I just happen to have a spare Traditions Deerhunter flint lock and barrel that I want to fit to this pistol stock, the lock already seems to fit well.

I understand that the breech has to be fitted to the barrel so that it aligns the flats correctly and that it also bottoms out in the threads so as not to leave a space for fouling to collect and rot out the barrel. (sadly neither Deer Creek nor Traditions will sell a breech plug or two) The only gun smith that I have approached about the project didn't seem to agree about where I think the touch hole should be but it might well have been a misunderstanding, heck I might not have a clue where the touch hole need be. (my opinion the touch hole needs to be centered in the pan and high enough so that the flat on the barrel side of the frizzen covers it...) He seemed to think it needs to be touching the bottom of the pan.

 

[F.G. Ford]

The touch hole should be as close to center as reason, and about 1/8" above the bottom of the pan.
But the hole must be on the flat adjacent to the lock.
Remember heat goes up and to side, that is why a proper set up flintlock works so well.
If you put the hole at the bottom of the pan, the lock will work like a fuse, and you will have delayed ignition, or poor ignition.
Old Ford

 

[ebiggs1]

“... muzzleloading single-barrel pistols having a barrel length of 10 inches or greater that can be loaded only through the front of the barrel with separate components and are .45 caliber or larger. ...”

This is the law in Kansas and it pretty much limits which handgun you can use. You may want to check your states regs before hand. :hmm:

 

[Dphar]

Dan.. so in your opinion a cut down 1-48 rifle barrel ought to do ok for a pistol? Nearly everyone else has said it is a waste of time and effort to cut down such a slow twisted barrel for a pistol.

I'm looking at possibly an 18inch barrel.

I have made most of my pistols with rifle barrels.
Why? When I started there was no real choice.
IMO fast twist barrels are for target loads.

My opinion on rifling twists is that pistol barrels are over twisted for general use and rifle barrels are often under twisted. I think the vast majority of shooters would be best served with a 48" twist for both at least to 54 caliber in rifles. But this cannot be done with a barrel that is rifled .004 deep. It needs .008 or a little more to give adequate engagement of the patch. This was tried by a mass maker and it gave the very useful 48" twist that was apparently very common historically, an undeserved blackeye and the myth continues to this day.
If you have a rifle barrel cut off in 48 or 72" twist by all means make a pistol from it. The fast twist pistol barrel "requirement" is a myth. I would bet with the right load a 48" twist pistol barrel will equal if not outshoot many modern handguns at 25 yards.
As LaBonte pointed out a great many pistols were smooth. At pistol ranges these are adequate and at 25 yards will likely shoot well enough for most purposes certainly for shooting men or large game.
I just like rifled bores.
A 54 cal 66 twist FL pistol with 60 gr of FFF will shoot well enough to hit the kill zone of a deer to at least 50 yards and this is as far as ANYONE should be shooting at unwounded game with a FL pistol. It would will also hit a grouse's head/neck at 10-20 yards.
The last pistol I made was for a friend from a cutoff GM 58 left over from rebarreling one of his rifles.

If I were building a hunting pistol for me I would build the same thing in 54-58.
Right now I have a pair made by a friend with wooden rods (these require a keeper to hold them in). Since I have a pair I have no motivation to make pistols for myself and I have 3 projects in the works already.
The captured rod is far superior but the swivel parts have to be shop made. The store bought links sold are too flimsy but make excellent patterns. The button end lets the rod, made of 1/4" piano wire, double as a starter.

The friend who owns this says he would not hesitate to shoot an elk at 50 yards with it.

If I had an 18" piece of barrel I would make two pistol barrels :grin:

Dan

 

[Dphar]

“... muzzleloading single-barrel pistols having a barrel length of 10 inches or greater that can be loaded only through the front of the barrel with separate components and are .45 caliber or larger. ...”

This is the law in Kansas and it pretty much limits which handgun you can use. You may want to check your states regs before hand. :hmm:

I forget about legal limitations.
Where I live we don't have any. Except I can't shoot grouse with my pistol anymore :idunno:

But apparently the big game in MT is less bullet resistant than in some other states :grin:

Dan

 

[Dphar]

The touch hole should be as close to center as reason, and about 1/8" above the bottom of the pan.
But the hole must be on the flat adjacent to the lock.
Remember heat goes up and to side, that is why a proper set up flintlock works so well.
If you put the hole at the bottom of the pan, the lock will work like a fuse, and you will have delayed ignition, or poor ignition.
Old Ford

Actual timing of the ignition cycle has shown that there is no difference between low/mid/high vent locations.
I like them about here though this is on the high end.

Centered at the top edge of the pan is about perfect.
But the pan cover MUST block the vent went closed so too high is a problem with locks with thin pan covers.

 

[Darkgael]

Top loads (highest velocity) with each of the (.50 cal. and .54 cal.)are similar ballistically to the .45 ACP and the .44 Magnum (relatively light load with a 220 grain bullet).

The Flinter will make a bigger hole. I have had a yen for some time now for a smoothbore in .62 cal. This thread has me thinking about that again.

Pete