flintlock enegery

[ebiggs1]

Since, what’s his name, made a claim our flintlock muzzleloaders are not powerful enough to hunt deer, I decided to look at some figures. I am going to guess 800 Lbs. energy is minimum.
I choose 70 grains of black powder because it seems the most accurate load for me but as you can see it probably doesn’t reach my goal of 800 Lbs at range. But look what happens with just 90 grains of BP. Anything under 100 yards seems to be well within specs and certainly adequate. I included the 45-70 as a reference.


128 grain rb 70 grs. FFG 1825 F.P.S. 940 Ft. Lbs. 45 cal
175 grain rb 70 grs. FFG 1643 F.P.S. 1050 Ft. Lbs. 50 cal

240 grain maxi ball 70 grs. FFG 1522 F.P.S. 1312 Ft. Lbs. 45 cal
350 grain maxi ball 70 grs. FFG 1327 F.P.S. 1447 Ft. Lbs. 50 cal

45-70-405 70 grs. FFG 1394 F.P.S. 1748 Ft. Lbs. 45 cal

128 grain rb 90 grs. FFG 2003 F.P.S. 1122 Ft. Lbs. 45 cal
175 grain rb 90 grs. FFG 1950 F.P.S. 1478 Ft. Lbs. 50 cal

240 grain maxi ball 90 grs. FFG 1672 F.P.S. 1583 Ft. Lbs. 45 cal
350 grain maxi ball 90 grs. FFG 1465 F.P.S. 1764 Ft. Lbs. 50 cal

Did our great, great, great grandfathers ever use anything except round balls? The enegery of the heavier maxi ball skyrockets! But it still brings use back to the point of what we are doing, if you want magnum power go buy a center fire, shoot at 400 yards, and be done with it. These loads come from the TC manual that comes with the gun.

 

[Snow on the Roof]

Interesting, by comparison a standard factory load for the .357 magnum, legal in most states for deer, with a 158 grain LSWC produces 1250 fps and 550 ft pounds of muzzle energy,. A "hot" handload will produce apx 700 lbs of energy. Neither aproaching the energy levels of your "uneffective" little .45 RB... :hmm:

JOhn

 

[romeoh]

Since, what’s his name, made a claim our flintlock muzzleloaders are not powerful enough to hunt deer, I decided to look at some figures. I am going to guess 800 Lbs. energy is minimum.

I don´t know who made that statement.
But the minimum energy for roes, red deer and hogs in the German hunting laws are a problem for the German ML-hunters.
They are not accepted by many hunters because the law requires a minimum of 2000 Joule for red deer and hogs. And 1000 for roes. :shocked2:
2000 Joule are 1475 Ft.Lbs.

Doesn´t sound critical? - The law requires that energy to be left after 100 meters! :shocked2:
This is the main reason why even the 45-70 is a step-child among German hunters.
The energy is by the way required only for rifle-cartridges. So, shooting slugs out of a smootie is OK.
And it would also be OK to use a ML. Because there is a rifle but no cartridge. :wink:
But for many old-fashioned hunters (and the youngsters who learned from them) it´s a no-go to use a rifle not bringing the energy in the law. :youcrazy:

Stupid, I know. But the 2000 is holy here. :bow:

 

[hanshi]

Interesting, by comparison a standard factory load for the .357 magnum, legal in most states for deer, with a 158 grain LSWC produces 1250 fps and 550 ft pounds of muzzle energy,. A "hot" handload will produce apx 700 lbs of energy. Neither aproaching the energy levels of your "uneffective" little .45 RB... :hmm:

JOhn

So very true! And I've taken quite a few deer (all one shot kills) with that very load (I chronographed it) 158 x 1250fps! The .40 prb can beat that!

 

[Frank/Pa]

Modern ballistic tables listing foot pounds of energy do not apply when shooting pure lead roundballs.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree. Its very difficult to get folks to understand that a pure lead Round Ball is an entirely different creature than an alloy lead bullet, ballistically speaking. Its really a case of apples and oranges to compare the two.

Most modern shooters would politely decline to shoot any 50 caliber rifle or larger bore gun with either a RB or a bullet. They have all heard of the power of the .458 Magnum cartridge, how it knocks you off your feet, or dislocates your shoulder, or some other calamity. When they hear we are shooting .58 or .62 caliber rifles, they think we are nuts!

I have had men refuse my offer to shoot my 12 ga. Mling shotgun, even after seeing me shoot it, and describing the recoil felt, compared to all the noise they heard. I usually am shooting lighter loads than they are on the skeet or trap field. :idunno: :shocked2: :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[nkbj]

The following response has been prepared with particular attention being given to maintaining this forum's standards of decorum and gentlemanly conduct.

Fellas, how well the projectile accomplishes volumetric displacement (cubic inches per second) when it arrives is everything, be it a photon torpedo honkin' little fifty round ball from a long barrel or a .58 minie coasting in from a stubby carbine. Energy calcs aint squat.

 

[Stophel]

Since, what’s his name, made a claim our flintlock muzzleloaders are not powerful enough to hunt deer

You mean Daniel Boone was a liar!?!? Davy Crockett never really killed a bear?!?!?

:grin:

 

[TFoley]

The following response has been prepared with particular attention being given to maintaining this forum's standards of decorum and gentlemanly conduct.

Ahhh, ya mudder wears foot pounds.
Fellas, how well the projectile accomplishes volumetric displacement (cubic inches per second) when it arrives is everything, be it a photon torpedo honkin' little fifty round ball from a long barrel or a .58 minie coasting in from a stubby carbine. Energy calcs aint squat.

Slightly OT, but in the aftermath of the Battle of Rourk's Drift [Zulu] it was noted that some of the dead Zulu were stacked three deep from the same bullet having passed through all of them.

tac

 

[Mike Brooks]

You can kill deer with a .22....they ain't hard to kill. :idunno:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ft lbs. of Energy don't tell you about the benefit of a round ball spinning its way into flesh and organs. Its better than an angled drill bit. FPE doesn't tell you about how a soft lead ball expands on impact, even at low velocities, increasing the primary wound channel size, which is already bigger than most "deer cartridge" dream of reaching when they exit.

One of the real problems with all " High Velocity bullets- be they conicals in a MLer, or a modern bullet-- is that they travel through thin skinned animals like deer almost too fast, and fail to unload all their energy in the animal. Energy dumped in the ground behind the animal is energy wasted. You don't get a lot of deer standing three deep like those Zulus at Roark's Drift, TAC.

What high velocity rounds are Depending on is that high velocity producing a Secondary Wound Channel, that is much larger than its primary WC. This is accomplished by the vacuum created off both the nose of the bullet, and the base of the bullet, "sucking" blood from surrounding tissue to the primary WC. All that works fine, at close ranges. At longer ranges, when the bullet drops much of its velocity, you see far less of any secondary wound channel on game.

That is why you see companies "bonding" the cores to the jackets, and compartmentalizing the cores into 2 sections. The front of the jacket can be "thinned", and the nose can be hollow pointed to provide near Instant expansion, while the back 1/3 of the bullet remains intact, to guarantee enough weight to push the bullet into the vital organs, on long range shots. And, of course, the ammo companies try to get the absolute maximum velocity out of these bullets so that the speed of the bullet down range still is sufficient to provide that necessary Secondary WC.

None of this works, in Traditional Rifles, shooting RBs, of course. And that is why FPE simply is not a good basis to compare the performance of a RB to that of a modern bullet. If you believe FPE is the ONLY way, we would never allow any archers to hunt game. :hmm:

 

[larry wv]

Their is a formula for momentum that works better for heavy bullets. Haven't seen it for awhile but thought it was ok at the time. Been prob 10-15 years so if it sucks chalk it up to a bad memory :idunno: . Expanding soft lead and momentum make a good pair. Larry Wv

 

[Trench]

You can kill deer with a .22....they ain't hard to kill. :idunno:

I don't buy it. Unless you get that round ball or conical moving at 3000fps, they'll probably just bounce off the deer's hide. :grin: I just don't know why we insist on using these unethical pop guns to kill deer. :haha:

 

[roundball]

I just don't know why we insist on using these unethical pop guns to kill deer. :haha:

OK, I gotta come clean...I sweet talk them into laying down with my Flintlock, snap a couple pics, and photoshop entry holes with a dab of red...cause everybody knows PRBs won't get it done

 

[hanshi]

Sure as shootin' me doesn't mean much when talking about prb. About the most me you can get with one is still in the 30/30, .35 Rem range. Of course they do drop game as well as magnums and with adequate penetration. Remember the old admonition "don't line up so a ball won't go through but one man"?

I've never been much of a believer in the "dwell time" school of thought regarding prb penetration. Take that to the extreme and you'd have to admit the most deadly thing to do is surgically implant a ball so it would stay in a loooong time! Energy, wasted or otherwise on the ground beyond, has done it's job on the target. The prb goes in, does damage, the target reacts in proportion to the damage. The target's constitution and the placement of various stars throughout neighboring galaxies also come into play. Ball go in,
ball go out
Deer DRT,
or run about.

 

[gunbug]

I have never used my muzzloader for hunting[yet]but i was with my friend when he shot a large whitetail doe with a .45 kentucky. She dropped at the shot and just kicked a bit so i think the soft lead must have spent all it's energy in the deer. No tracking needed. Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Normally, shots that result in the deer dropping in its tracks have hit the spinal cord, or brain. The central nervous system has to be shut down to stop movement that fast. The normal defense of deer is to RUN. Even when shot through the heart, a deer often runs 25 or more feet before dropping. It depends on the amount of oxygen in the blood at the time of impact, as best I can determine. If a deer has just taken a breathe when hit, he can run many yards before collapsing,even with a double lung hit. I have seen this done with both Mlers, in a variety of calibers, and with shotgun slugs. On the other hand, I have killed two deer with spinal cord hits, and both dropped in their tracks( DRT!)

 

[Dphar]

The problem here is the assumption that energy levels mean anything.
Consider the ME of a BP loaded 45-70-400 vs a 22-250 or 243.
The 45-70 will pretty well do for anything in NA.
The 22-250?
The energy thing is a guide that lets people shooting bullets at high speed make assumptions.
In BP firearms its meaningless since it distorts the power level in favor of velocity.
A 45 caliber RB will kill deer as far as person should be shooting them with it, 120 yards or so.
If placed properly.

Bore sizes.
We KNOW that the 45 works, we KNOW that many Hawkens were 50 caliber. The trade gun and the "typical" plains rifle used a 1/2 ounce ball, about .530 diameter. These OBVIOUSLY work they have for centuries.
If I were going to Kentucky in 1765 to hunt deer for their hides I would likely use a 40-45 caliber. Light ammo load and it will kill anything I needed to kill, easier to shoot accurately too. If we look at rifles of the Rev-war period that have seen little use they are generally UNDER 50 caliber.
Col Hanger (British officer serving in the "American war" and an expert rifleman) stated that he had seen many hundreds of American rifles and never saw one larger than 36 to the pound.
A did at the Blue Licks battle in Kentucky found balls no larger than 50 caliber. Indicating everyone, Kentuckians, British rangers and natives were likely rifle armed.
With these things in mind, along with a journal entry or 2 we might assume the 54-58 caliber rifle was rare or at least less common than many think by 1770 and perhaps before.

Dan

 

[ebiggs1]

It is easy to see, however, that people may draw the conclusion that patched round balls are not completely lethal, or better, humanly lethal. I have never killed anything with a round ball so I can’t say with any expertise but I am not a total neophyte either. Having shot many deer with my 30/06 Remington Woodsmaster.
I ran across this article form Library of Congress: “American War Casualty Lists and Statistics.” It lists the causalities of the Civil War where round ball and it’s cousin mini balls were used by ranks of soldiers standing 50 ”“ 100 yards apart and shooting at each other.

Casualties include three categories:
1) Dead (aka fatalities, killed-in-action and mortally wounded;
2) Wounded; and
3) Missing or captured.

In general terms, casualties of Civil War battles included 20% dead and 80% wounded. Of the soldiers who were wounded, about one out of seven died from his wounds. Over 2/3 of the estimated 620,000 men who gave their lives in the Civil War died from disease, not from battle.

Not trying to prove or disprove anything, just relaying what the general public is reading and what may drive their discussion making process. Plus when they read articles like the one mentioned previously, in the first post, you can see how this happens.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I ran across this article form Library of Congress: “American War Casualty Lists and Statistics.” It lists the causalities of the Civil War where round ball and it’s cousin mini balls were used by ranks of soldiers standing 50 ”“ 100 yards apart and shooting at each other.

Casualties include three categories:
1) Dead (aka fatalities, killed-in-action and mortally wounded;
2) Wounded; and
3) Missing or captured.

In general terms, casualties of Civil War battles included 20% dead and 80% wounded. Of the soldiers who were wounded, about one out of seven died from his wounds. Over 2/3 of the estimated 620,000 men who gave their lives in the Civil War died from disease, not from battle.

Not trying to prove or disprove anything, just relaying what the general public is reading and what may drive their discussion making process. Plus when they read articles like the one mentioned previously, in the first post, you can see how this happens.

Not aimed fire. Volley fire was not "aimed" at a particular individual, but at the mass of men in front of you. Take an aimed shot at a single man and drill him through the heart and he's going to be stone dead when he hits the ground.