What modern bluing method would come close to the 18th century "fire blue" process that was used in the past, durability not being an issue.a thread on another forum about circa 1750ish English trade gun barrels being fire blued as well as brite sparked my curiosity, also any PERIOD refernces for this time and earlier (pre 1760) for French hunting/trade guns being blued or browned from the armoury ..Thanks
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Fireblue
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paulvallandigham
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Try heating the screw up to over 400 degrees, and then spraying it with oil, or dropping it in a container of motor oil to cool. You should get a nice BLACK color that has some durability.
The only way I know to get "Fire BLUE" is by heating the screws up in a darkened room- after your pupils have dilated, and watch the color changes. STOP the heat WHEN the screw head turns BLUE. LET IT COOL, and then spray or dip the screw in oil, and let it "soak" over night to set the color a bit.
The mistake is in trying to get the blue color in bright light- natural or artificial. The color changes occur so fast with small parts that its easy to miss it. Then you have to cool the part down, buff or abrade the color off it, and start over again. If you are using a torch to heat the small screws, consider wearing dark goggles to keep your pupils from constricting from that intense light of the torch.
A buffing wheel and jeweler's rough is sufficient to take off the thin surface oxidation. If you use an abrasive, you usually will then have to polish the head again, as most abrasives are too coarse. ( I did this with "crocus cloth", once- the finest abrasive paper we had on hand.I don't know what the grit size was, but they now sell even finer polishing abrasive papers/clothes.)
"Sneak up on that BLUE color!" is the best advice I was given back when I first tried to do this. :shocked2: :blah: :idunno: :hatsoff:
The only way I know to get "Fire BLUE" is by heating the screws up in a darkened room- after your pupils have dilated, and watch the color changes. STOP the heat WHEN the screw head turns BLUE. LET IT COOL, and then spray or dip the screw in oil, and let it "soak" over night to set the color a bit.
The mistake is in trying to get the blue color in bright light- natural or artificial. The color changes occur so fast with small parts that its easy to miss it. Then you have to cool the part down, buff or abrade the color off it, and start over again. If you are using a torch to heat the small screws, consider wearing dark goggles to keep your pupils from constricting from that intense light of the torch.
A buffing wheel and jeweler's rough is sufficient to take off the thin surface oxidation. If you use an abrasive, you usually will then have to polish the head again, as most abrasives are too coarse. ( I did this with "crocus cloth", once- the finest abrasive paper we had on hand.I don't know what the grit size was, but they now sell even finer polishing abrasive papers/clothes.)
"Sneak up on that BLUE color!" is the best advice I was given back when I first tried to do this. :shocked2: :blah: :idunno: :hatsoff:
Capt. Jas.
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TG,
Here is a link to Jack Brooks' website and his instruction for fire bluing. I believe he told me he can document it as far back as 1770 England and it's a very durable finish. http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/theclassroom.htm
What some call fire blue is actually a temper blue. It is a surface layer of iron oxide bluing. You can reach it at about 550-600 degrees. It is very beautiful with an impressive iridescent, rainbow blue finish but it wears quickly.
Here is a link to Jack Brooks' website and his instruction for fire bluing. I believe he told me he can document it as far back as 1770 England and it's a very durable finish. http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/theclassroom.htm
What some call fire blue is actually a temper blue. It is a surface layer of iron oxide bluing. You can reach it at about 550-600 degrees. It is very beautiful with an impressive iridescent, rainbow blue finish but it wears quickly.
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Thanks Capt, I suspect it would be the same as what was used in the earlier period references.I just looked at the site and it appears to be what many call the charcoal blueing, what would be the difference twixt that and the case blueing or which ever the less durable finish would be, I got the impression that the less durable would have been used on the trade guns?
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The charcoal blueing is a tad more durable, but not by much. The charcoal does add something to the process or all it would require is a heat source to temper blue it. Neither way will it last very long with hard use, but that is to be expected. Colt used the charcoal blueing on the early pistols. They wore pretty fast, but not overnight.
I don't think the French trade guns were either fire blued or browned. I don't think they were charcoal blued either. I think they were left in the bright condition and not very highly polished. Charcoal bluing is a totally different process than fire bluing. Colt pistols were charcoal blued in a revolving furnace. It was sort of a cross between charcoal bluing and fire bluing. Charcoal was in the furnace but the gun was not packed in the charcoal. There are no hard facts on colts process to be found that I am aware of. It is a semi secret. Modern gunsmiths talk about it a lot but what I have told you is the normal consensus. The fire bluing of the 18th century was done by a guild. The bluers guild. Originally they just did sword blades. It was done in hot sand. There was a huge pile of hot sand on top of a forge. The sword was stuck in the hot sand until it was the proper color. First one end and then the other.
The trade guns ended up brown pretty fast just from the weather.
The trade guns ended up brown pretty fast just from the weather.
Thanks for the info Jerry, probably right on the French guns but I have seen reference to various degrees of "polish" on French guns of the trait and De Chase type as I recall so this is likley a "grade" issue of sorts, probably a Fusil Fin De Traite was more polished than a plain Fusil De Traite,there are scads of different grade nomenclature combos, I think Ravenshear listed a bunch of them in some of his writtings
matt denison
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The mistake is in trying to get the blue color in bright light- natural or artificial. The color changes occur so fast with small parts that its easy to miss it. Then you have to cool the part down, buff or abrade the color off it, and start over again. If you are using a torch to heat the small screws, consider wearing dark goggles to keep your pupils from constricting from that intense light of the torch.
Hooey!
How can you see the color change in a dark room? Goggles? ..jeese... :cursing:
Why do you continually post on things you've obviously never done an have no idea what you are talking about. How do you think that reflects on the credibillity of this forum? I can just see some poor guy trying to see the color of screw heads changing from straw to blue in a dark room wearing goggles thinking //"what the heck?! this is how the guy said to do it.."
Fire blueing which is really temper blueing is an extremely simple process that only requires temperatures up to 650 degrees, easilly attaniable with a propane torch. No intense flame or heat involved and done in a room well lit enough that you can see the color changes and arrest them before they go too far by dunking the part in water or oil.
I agree. Fire bluing on small parts is a very simple process. the main thing is to heat very slowley.
TG. I agree with you on the different grades of guns. Some of them were pretty fancy and made for chiefs and such. At least the English did. I am not very well informed on French trade guns.
fire bluing a barrel can be very difficult as is ant big part. Especially if it has changes in dimension and density.
TG. I agree with you on the different grades of guns. Some of them were pretty fancy and made for chiefs and such. At least the English did. I am not very well informed on French trade guns.
fire bluing a barrel can be very difficult as is ant big part. Especially if it has changes in dimension and density.
mikemeteor
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and by the way - Happy Birthday Jerry ! :hatsoff:
matt denison
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If stupidity was fatal then none of us would have made it this far.
I have a neighbor across the street that is 75 and he puts me to shame in both catagories of enthusiasm and energy. He is my inspiration. I teach him about computers and digital cameras, he teaches me about everything else important in life. -like cleaning and cooking fish.
Happy Birthday Jerry
I have a neighbor across the street that is 75 and he puts me to shame in both catagories of enthusiasm and energy. He is my inspiration. I teach him about computers and digital cameras, he teaches me about everything else important in life. -like cleaning and cooking fish.
Happy Birthday Jerry
paulvallandigham
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Excuse me? Who do you think you are?
I have in fact " Done it" this way many times. And, I have tried to fireblue small screw heads in lighted rooms with great frustration, too. I first tried this when I was only 16 years old, trying to refinish screws for a 1903A3 rifle I was " Sporterizing" back then. Dad had a small supply of crocus clothe, and let me use it to take the bad finish off the screw heads, and polish them smooth again.
We ended up using the gar range in the kitchen with the lights off, and doors closed. The room was Not dark totally- as there was enough light to see- just from the flame of the gas. There was also light coming in a window that was only blocked by a thin curtain.
If you have a better way of doing this, FINE. I am always interested in learning better ways here.
I don't need your insults, and your declaration that " I obviously have never done this". I don't know YOU, and you don't know me. There is simply NO WAY you can possibly know what I have done over my life time.
My father owned very few Powered tools when I was growing up( He bought them after I went to college!) I didn't have the luxury of belt sanders, acetylene torches, drill presses, lathes, milling machines, or even powered saws. Dad wanted me to learn to do EVERYTHING with hand tools, and learn to "Make do". It was a PITA education, but it has served me well over the years.
Oh, FYI, my father knew that fireblue would not hold up to handling, but he didn't tell me that. He wanted me to learn it first hand, and wanted me to learn how the process was done. He taught me many things by letting me make my mistakes, before telling me better ways of doing things.
I tried Charcoal Bluing once, without noteworthy success, and abandoned further attempts, for instance. That is why you won't find me trying to tell someone here how to Charcoal blue anything.
I have in fact " Done it" this way many times. And, I have tried to fireblue small screw heads in lighted rooms with great frustration, too. I first tried this when I was only 16 years old, trying to refinish screws for a 1903A3 rifle I was " Sporterizing" back then. Dad had a small supply of crocus clothe, and let me use it to take the bad finish off the screw heads, and polish them smooth again.
We ended up using the gar range in the kitchen with the lights off, and doors closed. The room was Not dark totally- as there was enough light to see- just from the flame of the gas. There was also light coming in a window that was only blocked by a thin curtain.
If you have a better way of doing this, FINE. I am always interested in learning better ways here.
I don't need your insults, and your declaration that " I obviously have never done this". I don't know YOU, and you don't know me. There is simply NO WAY you can possibly know what I have done over my life time.
My father owned very few Powered tools when I was growing up( He bought them after I went to college!) I didn't have the luxury of belt sanders, acetylene torches, drill presses, lathes, milling machines, or even powered saws. Dad wanted me to learn to do EVERYTHING with hand tools, and learn to "Make do". It was a PITA education, but it has served me well over the years.
Oh, FYI, my father knew that fireblue would not hold up to handling, but he didn't tell me that. He wanted me to learn it first hand, and wanted me to learn how the process was done. He taught me many things by letting me make my mistakes, before telling me better ways of doing things.
I tried Charcoal Bluing once, without noteworthy success, and abandoned further attempts, for instance. That is why you won't find me trying to tell someone here how to Charcoal blue anything.
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ah HA! (as in 'eurika moment). the results i got were pretty dreadful, but i bet i'd have better control in a darkened room ... gotta give that a try
Jerry: You mean to say you have ripe hucks in E. Oregon? I'd better run up toward Crater Lake and check my patch. TG: They ripe up your way?
Man that Jack Brooks barrel-in-the-trench process would give me ulcers!
Man that Jack Brooks barrel-in-the-trench process would give me ulcers!
I have not been up in tghe hills to see but I think they may be a bit later this year due to cool damp spring summer many things were including wild blackberries, the Huckle berries should be close, I hope to get up after Sept 1 to look for Grouse and MT Qual and will keep an eye for the berries as the old area with lots of big rotted stumps are full of them as they grow out of the old stumps in thick clumps, also a good place to find the birds along with the Elderberry patches.
hoochiepapa
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Bill, I just talked to Jack at the CLA show yesterday about fire bluing. He makes it sound simple, but says it is difficult. I think I'll stick with the boiling method.
Jerry, I'm sorry I missed your birthday-hope you had a good one.
Jerry, I'm sorry I missed your birthday-hope you had a good one.
For what it's worth I always sit in a brightly lit room when I'm fire bluing screw heads and other small parts.
The "trick" is to heat the part VERY SLOOOOOOLY while watching it constantly.
I never point the flame from the torch at the area I want blued.
If the screw is long, the flame gets pointed down the shank away from the head. If the part is very small, it is layed on a small block of steel (or brass, or aluminum) and the flame is directed towards the block.
In that way, the block slowly heats the steel part while I watch it change color.
First, light yellow, then straw yellow, then brown, then hints of brown/red, then purple and finally (get ready to move the part) BLUE! :grin:
Not a Colt or S&W blue but a brilliant blue!
If I don't act swiftly enough the blue will rapidly fade to a rather unattractive gray and I will have to start over by lightly sanding or polishing off the gray to get back to the raw steel color.
I have no idea how anyone could see these color changes in a darkened room or with dark glasses on so paulvallandigham has a secret I haven't figured out yet. That's OK. I've still got a lot of years ahead to figure it out.
The "trick" is to heat the part VERY SLOOOOOOLY while watching it constantly.
I never point the flame from the torch at the area I want blued.
If the screw is long, the flame gets pointed down the shank away from the head. If the part is very small, it is layed on a small block of steel (or brass, or aluminum) and the flame is directed towards the block.
In that way, the block slowly heats the steel part while I watch it change color.
First, light yellow, then straw yellow, then brown, then hints of brown/red, then purple and finally (get ready to move the part) BLUE! :grin:
Not a Colt or S&W blue but a brilliant blue!
If I don't act swiftly enough the blue will rapidly fade to a rather unattractive gray and I will have to start over by lightly sanding or polishing off the gray to get back to the raw steel color.
I have no idea how anyone could see these color changes in a darkened room or with dark glasses on so paulvallandigham has a secret I haven't figured out yet. That's OK. I've still got a lot of years ahead to figure it out.
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