Euroarms .58 musket (toon)??

[Ricochet]

I bought this from a buddy when the "new style" craze set in in the early 90's. He wanted 25 dollars for it so I obliged. I shot it a very few times over the years and it just hangs out in my safe. I actually killed a deer with it and a patched round ball a year or so after I got it. It does shoot them pretty good but I never shot a minie ball out of it and I am thinking that it was meant to shoot them as opposed to round balls. Im pretty sure he bought it from Dixie Gun Works and I tried at one time to look it up and figure out what it was replicating. He called it a 2 band musketoon so thats what Ive called it all these years. Can anyone help with it as far as where or if it was used in the war and if it may be called by another name? I would love to at least give it a correct name if Im wrong. Thanks for looking!

 

[dave951]

Yes, they were used during the War and were mainly found in cavalry or artillery units and musketoon is one name for them.

I have a Parker Hale musketoon and it will put minies into under 2in at 100yds. They can be quite accurate if you get your loading right- sized minie, decent powder charge, RWS caps.

To shoot it with minies, find out the actual bore size. Doesn't matter what's marked, measure it. Size pure lead minies to .001 under that size. Lube minie with beeswax/lard 60/40. Powder charge for best accuracy about 40-45g 3f. RWS caps. CCI reenactor ones are garbage for blanks only. Shoot, check results, adjust. It's great fun finding what works best in your gun.

 

[bang]

Hang on to it. Dixie doesn't sell them now but when they did they were $1050.

 

[Ricochet]

Hang on to it. Dixie doesn't sell them now but when they did they were $1050.

Whoa!! I had no idea!! If Id have known that I would have probably encouraged him to sell it for more!
Thanks for the help on it.

 

[bang]

Whoa!! I had no idea!! If Id have known that I would have probably encouraged him to sell it for more!
Thanks for the help on it.

Can't beat a deal. As for "realkirt" I can't find anything either other than it's a name in some countries.
From what I've read it's a 5 groove, .006 deep. Thick patch it tight and it should drive nails. Measure the bore minimum before you get minis. If you cast your own the affordable molds come in .575 and .578. Just from the numbers your bore minimum is .574. I'd be guessing the .575 and possibly sizing down just a tad. But there is a good chance they will come out of the mold that tad small. As long as you can pop it in the barrel without having to beat on it. My Zouave has a tight bore and the .575 pushes in with thumb pressure and rams easy. Most 58s military recommend military load is 60gn. That will work for ball or mini given you may have to tune the load. I shoot my Zouave at 65gn and it will put ball holes touching. Only shot a couple of minis so u don't have enough evidence
Just keep your loads standard and keep it clean and oiled and it will give you a life time of good shooting.
Another thing. If you want to just use #11 caps track of the wolf has good selection of nipples that will replace the musket nipple. Did it on mine and have no problems. If you want something hotter look up mag spark.

 

[dave951]

I shoot Minies all the time in North South Skirmish Association competition. In my experience with repops, the bore size varies considerably. For accurate shooting with Minies, you HAVE to know that size. Patch round ball is far more forgiving in that respect.

In repops I've been around, I've seen a nominal 58cal actually be as small as 571, to as large as 584. I can't stress enough to know what you have if you're going to shoot Minies and expect accuracy.

 

[Ricochet]

Thanks bang, appreciate the help!

 

[Ricochet]

Will do, thanks dave

 

[armoredshoe]

I have the Parker Hale 1861 Enfield artillery carbine, aka "musketoon", and I shoot Pritchetts out of mine. This paper patched bullet was the original issue in Great Britain and was adopted for all Confederate .577/58 weapons in 1864. The paper patching can be adjusted for variances in bore diameter with reproductions. The original load for the 1861 Enfield art. carbine was a .568 lead bullet (paper patched) weighing 530 grains propelled by a 68gr charge of BP. This was later changed to a .550 lead bullet to aid in loading in fouled rifles/carbines during combat.

Pritchet molds are readily available and there are Youtube videos on making the cartridges. If you don't want to roll your own, you can buy premade that you add your powder charge. This website has some good info:
https://www.papercartridges.com/pritchett-bullets.html

 

[TFoley]

It is my understanding that the marking of 3 Drams was the factory proving load, NOT the recommended load for shooting - 3 drams is around 75gr, way over the top for a .577/58cal arm of that period, when the service load for the three-band rifle was only 2 1/2 drams - 68gr.

I shoot my Musketoon with an as-cast Lyman Minié bullet with a fairly thick skirt and 60gr of Swiss #2.

Seems to like it.

 

[Stantheman86]

I have 2 of them, they shoot well with .575 Minies and 60 gr of 2f.

I can't get mine to shoot tight with the pre-made Pritchett tubes and bullets, I guess mine just don't like them as much as the "Burton Ball" Minie.

The correct sight picture is a "half sight", otherwise it may hit high. These are military rifles, not target rifles, so the sights are very coarse.

I love them, they are easy to handle with the short barrel, easier to load, they shoulder perfectly with really good balance. I can see why these were so highly prized by troops on both sides but mainly CSA troops. I read that JEB Stuart was a huge fan of the "Musketoons". I believe the British called them Short Rifles but Navy Arms started the Musketoon thing, probably from the French "Mosqueton"

 

[TFoley]

I believe the British called them Short Rifles but Navy Arms started the Musketoon thing, probably from the French "Mosqueton"

The derivation is correct, but the definition is not.

The Musketoon has two bands - the first is 7 3/8th inch from the muzzle, the second is 15 inches from the muzzle. The overall length is 40 inches.

The Short Rifle also has two bands, but as the Short Rifle is called 'short' only by comparison with the 54 inch-long three-band P53, it is STILL 48 inches long, so the barrel bands they are spaced differently - at 8 7/8th inches and 22 inches.

I have measured these features on four of mine.

BTW, Parker-Hale certainly called their product a Musketoon, long before Navy Arms got on the bandwagon. My P-H Musketoon, serial #1187, was bought new by me in 1974, and the instructions clearly read - 'Loading and Maintenance Instructions for Your Parker-Hale Musketoon.

Hope this is of use.

 

[Stantheman86]

Who started the "Musketoon" thing, Parker Hale?

The Dixie Web Site lists every Artillery 2-bander as a Musketoon , "JP Murray Artilllery Musketoon"

 

[Ricochet]

Ive learned more about this gun in a few hours than in the whole 27 years that Ive had it. Thank you gentlemen!

 

[dave951]

My question at the moment is why hasn't the OP gone out and shot this gun yet? The muzzleloading world wonders.............

 

[hawkeye2]

FWIW the J. P. Murray isn't an Enfield but is based on it. 62 carbines were manufactured in Colombus, Georgia for the Confederates along with 262 rifles. They are (correctly) classified as carbines by the N-SSA and are legal to shoot in carbine matches. It's simply incorrect to refer to the Murray as a musketoon.

I'm afraid I'm not much of an Enfield scholar and there's little more I can add there but I do suspect the term "musketoon" is quite overworked.

 

[Stantheman86]

I feel that in the 1960s-70s when the Civil War historical revival and interest in muzzleloading surged, the various little carbines just became known as Musketoons to differentiate them from the other 2-band rifles.

Those Euroarms JP Murrays have been around as long as I can remember, even as a young kid in the late 1980s or early 90s looking through the Gun Digest or catalogs and seeing them , I always thought they were neat rifles. Ironically, from the info above, probably 1000x the number of repros exist as genuine rifles.

Parker-Hale Musketoons are way more common than the "2 bander" or P53 3-band models apparently due to their popularity with Skirmishers and people probably just thought the little "short muskets" were neat and easy to handle and carry.

 

[Artificer]

FWIW in the period, British Ordnance used a number of descriptions for short barreled Enfields. Sometimes it was the "official name" and sometimes it described either to who the arms were to be issued and possibly minor differences compared to other short barreled Enfields.

Sappers and Miners Musketoon was a period term we don't often hear today. Cavalry Carbines sometimes meant their was a ring and sliding bar used on those Arms only. Sometimes the difference was only if there were sling swivels attached. Finally, original letters and documents don't always call the Arms by their official nomenclature.

Bottom line, "Musketoon" was a well known period term, though probably best known by British Ordnance, Quartermaster Officers/NCO's and of course the troops to whom they were issued.

Gus

 

[Ricochet]

My question at the moment is why hasn't the OP gone out and shot this gun yet? The muzzleloading world wonders.............

Ive shot it, I stated I killed a deer with it early in the post, just haven't shot it in over 25 years. I don't know, never got the urge to. I do think it is a nice gun, however, which is probably why I still have it.

 

[Stantheman86]

Gun nomenclature is flexible, I gave up telling my other shooting friends that I was , for example, making cartridges for a rifle to go shooting tomorrow and they're like "what like you're handloading" I'm like no for a Musket "oh ok"

Its easier just to call any military long arm that loads via the muzzle a "musket" , even though it's not always correct , because it's just easier most times.

Most people, especially shooters , know what a Musket is or at least have an idea.

Saying "Rifle" tends to confuse people.

Forget about "Rifle Musket" "Rifled Musket" "smooth rifle".......people just glaze over anyway.