English Proof Marks

[Captjoel]

Does anyone know about how to find a date range for these English proof marks from the barrel of this smooth bore gun? Any help would sure be appreciated!

 

[Rod Lassey]

The crossed scepters and crown marks are post-1813 Birmingham proofs, the London mark notwithstanding. The other mark appears to be the makers mark, it looks like Ketland. The Birmingham proofs are still in use, so I can't nail down a date other than the barrel was made after 1813. Perhaps someone knows the date range of the Ketland stamp?

If you've got photos of the whole gun, I'm sure we'd like to see them.

Rod

 

[Captjoel]

This is a better picture of the proofs.

 

[Captjoel]

Barrel is 37" long and octagon to round with a nice wedding band.

 

[Captjoel]

 

[Rod Lassey]

Now THAT is different! North West gun features, but with a very atypical triggerguard, barrel looks to have a hooked breech and is fastened with keys, not pins. Fancy front sight, and rounded lock tail with reinforced cock.

I'm not sure if it's a restock with NW gun parts, or a chief's gun type of NW gun. Contact laffindog on this forum, he'd know better than I.
Also, you might send an email with photos down to the Museum of the Fur Trade, for their opinion. http://www.furtrade.org/

Rod

 

[Captjoel]

Thank you Rod, I will get in touch with the Museum of the Fur Trade. You have been very helpful!.....Joel

 

[pargent]

Just looked at both sets of photos, looks to be a late 19th centry trade gun, would love to see the lock clearer , wait till LaffinDog has a look at it trade guns are his gig .

 

[Captjoel]

Thank you Phil, I will try and get you some pics of the lock later today.

 

[Captjoel]

 

[Captjoel]

 

[matt denison]

Just looked at both sets of photos, looks to be a late 19th centry trade gun, would love to see the lock clearer , wait till LaffinDog has a look at it trade guns are his gig .

:idunno:

 

[matt denison]

The original question was about the proof marks and Rod answered that already. The third mark on the barrel is a Pheonix/bird. I've seen the mark before, can't recall which book off hand. Will look later.

This gun has an odd mix of parts. Oddest of all is the hookd breech on that obvious trade gun barrel. Next oddest is the Hawken or English sporting gun trigger guard. Then it gets really odd with the what-looks-to-be homemade lock. Rod mentioned Chief's gun and I think he is right, that spider sight and the butt plate return in particular are from a Chief's gun. But there is the hooked breech, a later inovation after the British B. of O. stopped being so interested in giving away guns to Natives. One more small detail is if you look inside the lock mortise at the very forward of where the main spring is there is a distinct mark of a Forstner bit used to inlet that area. Hmmm, modern. Something else modern is the height oof the comb and rather sharp transition from the wrist to the nose of the comb. Looks nice but wasn't the way most trade guns were made (too fragile?) and the overall good condition of the wood. Last thing before I say what I think is that the serpent side plate doesn't "fit" in the molding. I think someone took a bunch of parts and put this together after tha fact, in other words a restock using an old Chief's barrel and butt plate and various othe parts lying around. Put some tacks in it and called it good.

 

[Fernando Keilty]

Hello:

Key (lock) is a key percussion (percussion lock) that has been modified to add a cup (flash pan), cat's foot (cock) and rake (Frizen). The spring rake (Frizen) lacks the final, the angle is steep, not fixed into place, and the screw heads are flat.

Fernando K

 

[Rod Lassey]

Matt, I'd agree that it's a parts gun, with a number of original parts. The lock looks somewhat like one of those old 1970s Japanese musket locks, while the barrel's probably an original, along with a fowling gun buttplate and possibly an original NW gun sideplate. The triggerguard looks original, too, but off an entirely different gun--I have seen that style on English double shotguns of the 1830s-40s era, or it could be from a rifle.

Interesting gun, none the less.

Rod

 

[pargent]

It would seem that folks on here will take on board what you have to say about things . :thumbsup:

 

[Captjoel]

Thank you Laffindog for your honest assessment of this gun. I pretty much had the same ideas on it up until I dismantled it and had a good look under the barrel and lock mortice areas. The stock is definately very old. I have been a student and collector of Kentucky rifles for several years and have seen the gambit on newer restocks and parts guns of those types. My interests in imported trade guns of our fur trade era stems from my interest in American history along with an old relic dragon side plate I acquired a few years ago from an excavation in Northport MI. This facination has led me to all of the books by Charles Hanson and T.M. Hamilton. The history of this gun is really what grabbed my attention and decision to buy it. It came out of a collection from the Mackinaw straits area and was bought in the seventies by a long time business associate of mine. He did some of the lock work on it to get it to shoot and actually took it hunting a few times. I fully agree that this piece is made up of a hodge podge of parts stocked into a shot gun. I just believe that these parts all came together and were stocked a very long time ago. Laffindog, if you could have this one in hand I think you might come to different conclusions. Perhaps someday I'll bring it around for your inspection. All the best....Joel

 

[matt denison]

"Laffindog, if you could have this one in hand I think you might come to different conclusions."


I hope there isn't a misunderstanding here. I never meant to sound like I thought the gun was junky or otherwise unworthy. I kind of like the out of the ordinary guns that we come across from time to time. Trade guns in particular can be very confusing. Used to be that they fit a pattern and could be identified as to manufacturer and date. Then the internet and several more books came along and scewed everything. Ryan Gale has several trade guns in his book that shouldn't exist. The hardware is wrong or mixed, pre 1813 proofs on guns with post 1815 date on the lock. Etc et. Your gun is similar to that except I don't think it was manufactured the way it looks now. It might handle and shoot very well but it isn't a typical British made trade gun. The barrel, trigg. guard and the lock are all from different eras. In fact (sticking my neckk out here) the trigger guard might even be of American manufacture.

Again, I'm not knocking your gun, just rambling about what I see.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

The proof mark on the left is a Birmingham View Mark used from 1813 to 1904 (means inspected before proof firing).

The Proof Mark on the right is a Birmingham Final Proof Mark from the same period. I sorry that this is so little he;p in dating, but it does support the other information supplied.

Don't know what the middle mark is.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Actually, the right hand proof mark was used with another mark not present on your gun from 1855 on (for Black Powder guns).