Early TC Flint Lock?

[Blackfingers]

I'm confused, is there any difference between an "Early" TC Flint Lock and one perhaps a bit newer?

 

[bubba.50]

the early locks had iffy geometry and were harder to get workin' consistently. later locks which can be identified by the slightly different look to the cock fixed the problems of the earlier ones. I've heard but, have no personal experience, of people usin' Lyman cocks & frizzens on the early locks with good results.

 

[Jumpshot]

The later cock has a different angle to improve the 'geometry' as it's called, and the later frizzen I think has improved hardening and a slighty changed angle (can't remember for sure how the frizzen was improved, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

You can tell the difference between the old and new cocks by the shape, and the new frizzen is shaped differently on the front (opposite the flint side) and it has a black finish that the early frizzen didn't have. You can find the later cock and frizzen on fleabay if you want to put them on your old lock. That's what I did with mine. Just shot it yesterday in fact.

 

[Blackfingers]

Thanks for the info and pics. The lock arrived just now, cleaned her up, installed a flint and she sparks very well. This lock was hardly used, frizzen has almost no wear. It is certainly an older model, will use it till it fails me. :thumbsup: Blackfingers

 

[Maven]

Some add a 1/8" thick shim (for lack of a better term) under the flint so that it strikes the frizzen at a better angle (improves lock geometry without adding a new cock/hammer).

 

[Jumpshot]

I also tried that with mine. I used a short piece of 1/8" dowel.

 

[rdstrain49]

Seems the fix is too simple, just use a chunk of heavy tooling oak, at about the mid point skive it to whatever thickness suits you and there you are. You now have a leather for your flint and a shim all in one, just too simple.

 

[White Oak]

Any post dealing with old and new style TC locks interests me as I have a 54 cal Renegade and a 54 cal Hawken both with old style locks.I can't say that I have ever been unhappy with them until the Renegade stopped sparking at which time I sent it in to TC hoping for a new style lock. They only replaced the frizzen with the new style black instead of the case hardened that was originally on the gun.
Perhaps ignorance is bliss because as I say I have not been that unhappy with the TC locks. Then again I do not own a Davis or L&R to compare to.
So I started doing some amateur digging to try to figure out what improvements were made to make new so much better than old. Taking measurements from the centerline of the square mounting hole to the bottom jaw showed about .130 difference or roughly 1/8" between the old and new style cocks. The new style being the longer.
Jumpshot, I know that the purpose of the pics that you posted are to show the difference between the two locks. They are great for that and I copied them myself when Roundball posted them. The pictures make it appear as the cock on the new style lock is much taller due to the camera angle. Where the difference can really be seen is when the cock is in the fired position. Then the 1/8" becomes huge in clearance to the fence. I also noticed that the flint in the new lock is installed bevel up and the old style is bevel down. This also makes a difference in where the flint contacts the frizzen. Almost negating the height difference.
I recently read about a guy cutting an old style cock and adding 3/16" to it. I stopped at Tandy and bought a scrap of 1/8" leather to use as a shim. I use leather about 1/16" to wrap my flints which totals about 3/16"in height. I want to see if this changes anything. I would rather find new style cocks for both guns but the prices of TC parts on the auction sites are usually ridiculous.
As for the new style frizzens although the shape is slightly different on the front I believe the improvement was mainly getting away from the case hardening. I don't see much if any change in the angle.
I just received a Lyman replacement frizzen for TCs. Bought it because my latest rifle still has the case hardened frizzen on it. Sparks great now but it will go away. I noticed the lyman frizzen is about 1/4" shorter than either TC frizzen. This would make it easy to believe that the flint was hitting higher on lyman than the TC.
Anxious to see if any of this makes a difference.

Take care,
Ed

 

[Blackfingers]

I spun my flint upside-down and am getting great sparking. However, If it weren't for all the wooodworking needed, I would install and L&R lock in a heartbeat! BF

 

[MSW]

there are two differences: one is the 'real world' geometry ... the newer lock (in my experience - -your mileage may vary) sparks a little bit better than the old one... I was never so upset with the old lock that I went through a bunch of gyrations to improve the spark- it fired every time i pulled the trigger, so i'm disinclined to complain ... i like the appearance of the old lock a little better than the new one, but that's just me ... get on FleaBay and go with what you like. Some years ago (before they sold out to S&W) i called them to see if i might purchase a new frizzen, and they said to send in the lock and they'd put a new one on. That was on a Monday, so Tuesday morning it went in the mail, and Thursday I had a brand new lock, some flint leathers, and two of those dreadful cut agate thingies. I have never been able to make the cut agate thingies spark - i suspect that they're good for throwing at politicians or perhaps slipping into the soup of an unsuspecting hippie-dippie.

I have used Lyman frizzens for many years (before getting a whole new lock) and they worked great. The T/C frizzens appear t be case hardened, and when you get through the case hardening, you get no more spark. Attempts to re-harden them will prove futile. Track of the Wolf claims to have replacements. there is another outfit which has a frizzen available - here's a link: http://www.rmcoxyoke.com/inc/sdetail/tc_replacement_frizzen__please_read_description_/468/15050


the other difference is the 'between your ears' type. Many will rant and rail about this or that being no PC/HC and so on, or that their particular method is the one and only: the truth and the light - well unto Holy Writ. I try to be tolerant of these people. Really I do, although sometimes it is difficult to listen to someone who will not or can not acknowledge that they might, just maybe, be wrong. After giving their argument a full hearing, i will give what they claim to be the greatest thing going a try, and if it doesn't work, i'll go back to doing what i did before. The take- home point here is that you should try it, and then go with what works for you, in your situation, suited to your purpose. This is supposed to be about fun, and putting lead on target, not living up to someone else's standard.


regardless of which way you go, the T/C is a fun little gun - once you get over the storied fact that is has as much to do with the Hawken brothers as a Ford Fiesta has to do with a Ferrari. Mine has yet to fail me.

Good luck with your project!

 

[Blackfingers]

Just returned from the range, upside down flint worked without a hitch!

 

[Blackfingers]

Just had another look at my Hawken flintlock, seems like I have a new style lock with an old model cock and screw. Go figure. Also was on the horn with TC themselves, a lady said there was only 1 style of lock, again, go figure. BF

 

[Gene Perryman]

Shot my TC FL Renegade yesterday. The first 7 shots were instantaneous (just before the flint went south). I use 3F for the load and pan. Mine is one of the new models and it just gets better the more I shoot it.
I believe you'll be happy with your rifle

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Is there a difference in the touch hole location or pan height between old and newer or is it just the picture angle ? Looks like the pan sits higher in relation to the touch hole on the picture of the newer style lock .

Eddie

 

[Nativearizonan]

Just had another look at my Hawken flintlock, seems like I have a new style lock with an old model cock and screw. Go figure. Also was on the horn with TC themselves, a lady said there was only 1 style of lock, again, go figure. BF

The lady you talked to obviously did not know.

I've had two of the old style; both with only 4 numerals on the serial number. Neither one sparked very well and the flints would last less than a dozen or so shots before needing touched up or replaced.

One of the locks had very little wear on the frizzen, and I was able to find a new style hammer to fix it, and it works fine. It's a .54 and I still have it.

The other had a pretty badly worn frizzen, but only for a small amount of the face, right in the middle where the old style hammer would hit. It's owner obviously didn't give up easy. I couldn't find a hammer on eBay right away, and decided to just go ahead and get the replacement L&R lock. It was a more expensive way to go, and took a bit more work and wood removal to make it fit, but it is a fine looking lock, much more like an original. This second Hawken was a .50 and I sold it to a friend. Hopefully it will get him started on flintlocks.

The bore on both rifles was barely broke in, even though they are over 40 years old.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Is there a difference in the touch hole location or pan height between old and newer or is it just the picture angle ? Looks like the pan sits higher in relation to the touch hole on the picture of the newer style lock .

Eddie

The camera angle is part of it...it's raised slightly in the lower "OLD" shot and the vent liners are different types.

 

[Zonie]

Although the picture of the "new" style lock is taken slightly lower, it is fairly close to the picture of the "old" style lock.

After measuring several different things in the pictures it also appears that the scale of them is very close to being the same.

That said, I measured the distance from the center of the cock screw that covers the square drive hole, up to the lower surface of the cock jaws.

Don't quote me on the value but this distance on the "old" style cock measures 1 1/2 inches.
The "new" style cock measures 1 5/8" on my 22" monitor.

That 1/8" difference seems to agree with what White Oak was saying 9 posts up from this one.

If this is one of the main changes, adding 1/8" of leather under the flint on a old style TC lock's cock should improve the reliability.

 

[Prairieofthedog]

That is funny,got looking at my Hawken Flintlock and it has the newer lock plate withe old hammer.What frizzen it has who knows.My lock would not spark and was hell on flints.Called TC,told me to send in the old lock and they would replace it with the new style.Got it back and THEY SAID THEY REPLACED THE FLY ON MY OLD LOCK!Thanks for nothing TC service!