early lancaster pictures

[Finnwolf]

Hi All,
I'd be interested in a PC/HC critque on my rifle named Ruth as posted in the 1st page of this thread.

In all fairness, this was NOT a build to PC project. I was trying to achieve a rifle that may have been carried by an established Pennsylvania farmer just before/after the Am. Rev. Also hunts meat for his table. No fancy carving, no fancy patchbox (I use a bag/horn).

I was NOT trying to be PC at all, just interested in the opinion of the forum.

Thanks
Finnwolf

Been a couple of days - anyone care to tell me where I went PC wrong with Ruth? Or am I hijacking a thread or something?

Thanks,
Finnwolf

 

[excess650]

"Been a couple of days - anyone care to tell me where I went PC wrong with Ruth? Or am I hijacking a thread or something?"

Its a pretty rifle for sure. As for time period, I would think it fit closer to 1800 from the shape of the butt and overall trim form. For a "plain gun" it sure has a spectacular piece of curly maple. Please don't take this as a criticism, as I happen to like it.

For a pre-Rev rifle I would have expected a thicker, heavier butt and wrist, and a hint of bulge at the rear pipe. Likewise a pre-Rev would have had a bit of carving on the tang w/o thumbpiece inlay, and a patchbox whether it be wooden or brass.

As for the other rifle criticized for the inlet of the buttplate, I have pictures of a couple of Fainot's rifles that exhibit the same "tilt" in the comb.

 

[tg]

It is hard to find originals without the basic line moldings along the forestock and lower buttstock and very often a bit of something on the cheekpiece, a straight barrel is usually considered a later thing by most,there doe sseem to be an ocean of extra wood on the lock panels this is probably made this way to accomadate larger locks, just some little things that one picks up on and works into future projects, the top of the butplate looks to be way off the lines of the radius,originals like this may have been restocked if they show this feature.it is a nice gun, but the Devil is in the details when looking for the "authentic" look, I do not claim to be a journeyman builder but try to study as much as I can when working on a type of gun.One can be somewhat handicapped by what is in the box when the parts arrive at times.

 

[fitter]

I think you are looking at the wrong gun.2nd gun down.Finwolf, Looks like Dunlap Issac Haines parts set.The hardware. butt plate TG etc.were designed by John Bivins for the Bicentenial guns. They are more of a contemporary design. Not really HC If thats what you want to know. That set makes a good gun though. Getz originally came up with that kit.

 

[Finnwolf]

I think you are looking at the wrong gun.2nd gun down.Finwolf, Looks like Dunlap Issac Haines parts set.The hardware. butt plate TG etc.were designed by John Bivins for the Bicentenial guns. They are more of a contemporary design. Not really HC If thats what you want to know. That set makes a good gun though. Getz originally came up with that kit.

Thanks Fitter. I was not after a PC gun at the time, just wanted to get a good rifle for hunting and get away from the production flinters out there and all their problems. Started saving years ago and was thinking an all PA rifle with a Getz barrel(PA), tiger maple stock (PA wood) and built by me (PA). I wanted to hunt like 200 years ago with something close to a gun made then as I could afford. I can't spend 10 grand on a rifle with a hand made iron barrel and hand made hardware.
Just curious if the gun is close to PC or not. Thanks for the reply.

Finnwolf

 

[fitter]

You made a good choice for what you intend to use your rifle for. They balance and handle real well for hunting with that 39" barrel.Being a Rice barrel I bet it shoots good! I only use Rice,GM,Ed Rayl or a Getz if I can get one in anything I build.

 

[tg]

I have heard that the Bivens furniture is more of an interpretation than a copy of original stuff, but many used it and make fine guns, that one is a very nice piece,one can find little things to pick on with most guns I really think we try to take the workmanship of the stock and furniture past the point that many of the very nice gun of the time were done, I started using scrapers and leaving a bit of a "footprint" here and there. many builders do not do this as they have a customer base that is used to the work on fine guns today and have not seen the average work done in the past, I do not mean to "grunge" a gun just make it look as thought it was made in the 18th century, this can mean variety of things to different people.

 

[Finnwolf]

Right, the builder and I discussed many of these things but he just seemed to be intuitional on most things. He routinely "ages" guns with his own way of grunging them but I chose to let nature and time do that.
He uses scrapers instead of sandpaper and it was he who wanted to use AF instead of stain. He suggested the cone and muzzle treatment and the vent pick inlay also and I wanted the hunter's star and thumbpiece.
He did a great job straightening out some of the mistakes I made when I started the gun. I know it is still a kit gun with modern steel barrel, a Siler lock and kit hardware but I think the builder did a great job, the wood is knockout and it sounds as if it's not too way off the mark.
Thanks for the critique.
Finnwolf

 

[fitter]

Your doing good at least you don't have a crooked butt plate like killer does HA HA! Did smallpatch build that gun? Lookslike he did a good job as usual. I guess he's my neighbor, sort of!

 

[Finnwolf]

Yes he did and I could not be more pleased with his work - oh, what a builder he is! He loves building rifles and he saved me from turning a good kit into a so-so gun. And a real nice human being as well. I'd refer him to anyone.

Finnwolf

 

[tg]

I have seen several of smallpatches guns and he does a pretty fair job, he does things I would not venture into being a novice with a capitol "N"
I do have a close friend who is top notch to help me thru the mentaly impaired days.My problem is that I do not really like to build guns but do it to cut cost and get what I want, likely nly one left for me to try a Brooks Carolina kit someday down the pike, but then I would have two .62 guns which I try to avoid, and it would be hard to sell the EV Chambers in exchange for a Carolina gun.

 

[Stophel]

Say, 1770-1775
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Flintlocks/Dickert/

As to silver, there are one or two Beck guns mounted in silver...I think one is the pistol...but that's about it. Just too expensive.

 

[Keb]

I started building this gun for my wife 14 or 15 years ago. After getting the parts together and pinning the barrel she decided she didn't want to shoot. Then we gave up the hobby altogether. Well, she died last spring so I had a lot of time on my hands and got the gun parts back out and began working on it again. The parts were purchased from TOTW back in 95 except for the barrel. The barrel is an old customer exchange and not what I would have preferred but the price was right. It's a .40 cal x 42" A weight Getz. Stock is Lancaster style, lock is L&R Early Classic. Sand cast brass furniture except the replaced pipes. I seem to have misplaced the originals so I had to use wax cast.
Anyhoo, I am building this gun in my kitchen. I find that granite counter tops make for a nice flat surface to work on. The rifle is completely assembled except for drilling the touch hole. Now comes the fun part of carving & engraving it. I hope to finish it before the ice melts off the lake.

 

[tg]

Stophel, as usuall a very nice gun, Keb sorry to hear of your loss, as for the gun the cal. is a bit small but probably not unheard and likely very light it looks nice. I have a hunch the stripes in that wood are really going to reach out and grab you, it really shows as it is,nice classic straight lines on the top/bottom of the stock,I like the straight butplate on the early guns also, these little things help maintain the what, when and where of a gun so when someone hangs a style /type on it it is quickly seen to have some of the traits known to be associated with said style/type other than just a vendors "name" which is attatched for catalog purposes.

 

[killer]

Your doing good at least you don't have a crooked butt plate like killer does HA HA! Did smallpatch build that gun? Lookslike he did a good job as usual. I guess he's my neighbor, sort of!

Can you or some explain what is wrong with the butt plate? I have looked at it time and again and dont problem. Maybe its my untrained eye but, i too a look at this early lancaster picture on TVM web sight and it looks just like mine. Here is the link its in thier christmas speacials. maybe it the angle of my picture. There is a step down like wedding band but its part of the butt plate. http://www.avsia.com/tvm/_images/guns/img1B.jpg

 

[tg]

If you take a straight edge and follow the bottom of the part of the plate that is inlet into the top of the stock it should be parralell to the line formed by the top of the butstock, on this gun the plate drops down towards the wrist and the line would fall away from the line formed by the top of the stock, I think I am on the right gun this time, much of the layout of these guns butstock is following lines of a radius with the center around the rear lock bolt, the top of the stock and the bottom lines are formed by this geometric principle. the cheek piece is often layed out the same way thus narrower at the front than the rear as the distance between the "spokes" increases as one travels farther from the center.Lay a yard stick on the rear lock bolt and see how the stock top and bottom and cheekpiece top and bottom line up with the "spokes" like in a bicycle wheel.

 

[excess650]

I wasn't following what you were saying earlier about the layout. Generally, Lancaster cheekpieces point towards, or parallel the wrist. J P Beck cheekpieces often point more towards the rear of the trigger guard.

 

[Finnwolf]

Can you or some explain what is wrong with the butt plate? I have looked at it time and again and dont problem. Maybe its my untrained eye but, i too a look at this early lancaster picture on TVM web sight and it looks just like mine. Here is the link its in thier christmas speacials. maybe it the angle of my picture. There is a step down like wedding band but its part of the butt plate. http://www.avsia.com/tvm/_images/guns/img1B.jpg[/quote]

Hi Killer,
You and I don't have the PC knowledge or eyes these guys do but you do have a gorgeous rifle there and that all that really matters unless you're into the PC aspect of it all.
Can any of us have a truly PC flintlock made as it was 250 years ago? Don't we use different steels, modern locks, new growth trees and sometimes modern power tools to build them?
I'm just glad to finally be shooting a rifle that was custom made by someone who cares that it works right instead of continuing to hunt with production guns with worse and worse quality that seem to ftf more and more.

Thanks
Finnwolf

 

[tg]

It is interesting to look at the Lancaster guns and others in RCA and use a straight edge to see where the bottom butstock line goes and do the same with the top of the stock and the top and bottom of the cheek pieces, a definite pattern appears on many guns, as to the intersection of these lines.

 

[Zonie]

Apparently it was a matter of the angle of the photo.

In this photo it does look like the underside of the butt plate rail is not running parallel with the comb as it should be.

In this picture

it looks more like it should.
I'm not sure how this happened but the underside in the upper picture definitely looks like it is running downhill with respect to the straight line of the comb.

keb
You mentioned that your gun was just about finished.
If I were building the gun in your photo, I would inlet the rear tang on the trigger guard.
It should not be standing proud of the wood.

Then again, maybe that is another matter of the angle that the picture was taken at?