early lancaster pictures

[Zonie]

If you disagree with me please feel free to comment.

IMO, Silver was used on longrifles but it was usually in very small ornamental inlays like a thumbpiece or a cheek rest inlay.

These inlays were usually made from Spanish Silver coins, either pounded into form or melted and cast.

Personally, I like the look of silver trigger guards and butt plates and have used German Silver parts on several of the guns I've built but I must admit they are not very traditional.

 

[hanshi]

TVM's nosecaps are installed loose on purpose or at least they appear to be on my TVMs and others I have examined. My guess is that this is done to facilitate removal for stock/barrel repair or maintenance. I personally don't like nosecaps fastened by screws or pins; been there, done that. The caps can be secured with a dab of rubber cement if you want extra insurance yet can still be easily removed without damaging stock or barrel. I've never had any problem at all with their method of installation.

Notice, too, that the rear sights don't come notched, just a location groove for the owner's convenience. This allows the owner the freedom to make the notch as wide/deep as desired. This is how I view the press fitting of the nosecap. Whatever the reason, I don't see it as an issue.

 

[fitter]

I wouldn't be very happy with the nosecap just coming off. In killers case the butt plate is cocked,lock molding too wide and a huge gap between the RR and nosecap.Shoddy workmanship.
What makes it a Lancaster?

 

[Dausener]

I don't want my nose cap being loose of coming off either but I disagree w/ you about killers rifle. It looks pretty darn nice to me. :thumbsup:

 

[killer]

I wouldn't be very happy with the nosecap just coming off. In killers case the butt plate is cocked,lock molding too wide and a huge gap between the RR and nosecap.Shoddy workmanship.
What makes it a Lancaster?

Im not quite sure what your seeing, but the fit and finish on my rifle is excelent. My butt plate isn't cocked, my nose cap isn't loose and im not sure you would no good workmanship if it bit you in the a@#.

 

[Dphar]

Does any body have any pictures of a early Lancaster , maybe one in silver too. thanks

Silver is virtually unknown in the context of original rifles.

Look to "Rifles of Colonial" America by Shumway
Whiskers books on Lancaster county.
Dan

 

[tg]

I would have to agree with Wick. I have not seen any reference to silver being used on early Lancaster guns, most barrels were 38" or more from what I have seen and most definately swamped if the gun is to be an early one, likely .50 bore give or take this is just based on what originals I have seen in books or have been discussed on various forums by some pretty sharp gun guys.

 

[J.D.]

I wouldn't be very happy with the nosecap just coming off. In killers case the butt plate is cocked,lock molding too wide and a huge gap between the RR and nosecap.Shoddy workmanship.
What makes it a Lancaster?

Im not quite sure what your seeing, but the fit and finish on my rifle is excelent. My butt plate isn't cocked, my nose cap isn't loose and im not sure you would no good workmanship if it bit you in the a@#.

While the over all fit and finish appear to be ok, and I do understand your enthusiasm for your new gun, Fitter is right on about those things he mentioned.

From the photos posted above, the top line of the return on the buttpiece appears to dip below the line of the comb. The line of the top of the BP return and comb of the stock should be in a straight line, IMHO. The lock panels are too wide for that style of gun, the tail of the lock and resulting lock panel are not centered on the wrist, and a proper ramrod location should rest close to the nosecap. The gap of the rammer at nose cap, and the thick lock panel gives the gun a somewhat thick, less than slim, sexy appearance that makes longrifles so appealing.

I only mention those things to emphasize how new builders should not use a modern reproduction as a basis for their own build. Nor should new builders replicate poor design, sometimes seen in originals, in their own builds.

While those deficits do not detract from the pieces function, they do detract from the over all appearance, when viewed by a discerning eye.

God bless

 

[PA Prof]

Arigato gozaimasita Hanshi,

That clarifies things a bit. Toni said basically what you said: it's easy to fix it with a little rubber cement or Devron. I may visit the hardware store and pick up a bit; in-season I tend to go through pretty tight brush and having had the mountain claim my priming flask last fall, I don't need to start losing parts of my rifle, too. :surrender:

The rest of the workmanship seems great. Can't wait to get this thing out to the range and start sighting it in.

 

[hanshi]

PAProf, I'm relieved I didn't steer you wrong on that. Sometimes (not too often, though) I kinda know a little bit about what I'm talking about. I remember those times quite well. For some reason I don't ever remember those times I'm wrong :rotf:. Seriously though, I'd think that normally the nosecap wouldn't be a problem except where the stock might shrink/expand due to humidity fluctuations. I haven't heard anyone mentioning losing a cap so your situation may be unusual. But as I said, it's an easy fix.

You got your rifle from the right people. I can't imagine anyone more honest and dedicated than Matt and Toni. I trust them the same as I trust my blood relatives (the good way-I have a close family). Congratulations on your new flinter; you will enjoy it.

 

[hanshi]

Killer, I looked for the flaws mentioned and came away with a different take. I can't see a misfitted buttplate. With the reflected glare coming off the metal and wood it appears to be perhaps an optical illusion. As for the ramrod I have enough trouble removing as it is; not sure I could do it easily with only a 180% fingertip pinch grip. I can see how it could be problematic in some cases but it's just a matter of taste. Since the gun is custom such nuances as a "no gap" rod can be specified with no problem.

I can see how some would not care for the lock setup. Again a matter of taste. Any lock that will fit can be specified; the Siler is simply the default lock. I tend to prefer larger locks in general but they don't always look right or fit well. You can go too far and end up with a flint lock that has a gun stuck to it. Unless there are indeed REAL flaws I wouldn't trouble myself with it. You got a beautiful rifle.

 

[tg]

I cannot believe that they are realy holding nose caps on with rubber cement, pins or screws have always worked fine to my knowledge, and this is not about PC or HC it sounds like a short cut and pardon me but a pretty cheesy one at that.Any veteran builders have any thoughts on that ,not thos gun in particular just the method of attatching a nose cap.This novice gunstocker could not go down that path. On the gun being critiqued, it has a beautifull piece of wood, I think I would have went with a trigger guard with a much larger bow I find them more comfortable to my large hands but that is just my taste.You will have many pleasnt years with that gun in the field or trail walk and will be the envy of many production gun shooters.

 

[fitter]

Good eye, JD. The line from the heel of the butt to the nose of the comb isn't straight. No optical illusion. I just wouldn't have accepted it that way.

 

[gizamo]

The thing is...

You love your gun, as you should. It is a beaut and something to be proud of. There are those here that will find flaws, but you need to know that no gun is flawless... Any custom builder worth his salt will tell you so. Unless they are blinded with pride.

Your gun becomes an extension of your ability. It will then respond to you. Learn it, know it's fickleness and foibles, make peace with it's subtle or slight nuances...

My point is that the gun and the man need to meld... Don't listen to the harpee's that will try to do the modern thing...

They are no different than any modern salesman trying to upsell you into something you don't need nor want....those that do so by judging your gun ~ never seen it shot, nor handled it....aren't worth listening to.

Yet, these same seem to have such high opinions of themselves that they express their personal ignorance of the same...

They prove themselves - not friends at your campfire....

Do not waste your time on false friends...

 

[tg]

This is a version of an early 1770 ish Lancaster intened to be along the lines of a Haines gun built from TOW parts 44" swamped barrel, early english lock,brass, simple incise moldings along the foresock and lower buttstock and behind the cheekpiece, a pretty simple basic gun, I think if doing it again I would have made the buttsock straight with no curviture, someone else shoots it now as my interest went to the dark side of the world of smoothbores.This pic does not show a lot of detail, but most who saw it thought it to be Lancasterish.The straight lines of the buttstock seem to be one of the main identifying features most use with Lancaster guns, with the top and bottom comming off the lines of a radius centered about at the rear lock bolt, the lines defining the cheekrest will also follow these lines.not all Lancasters are as such but many use this style.

 

[bkovire]

nice tiger stripe.

 

[gizamo]

tg, my old Amigo...

Very nice, !!!

Don't recall you posting that pic before...

Steve

 

[J.D.]

The thing is...

You love your gun, as you should. It is a beaut and something to be proud of. There are those here that will find flaws, but you need to know that no gun is flawless... Any custom builder worth his salt will tell you so. Unless they are blinded with pride.

Your gun becomes an extension of your ability. It will then respond to you. Learn it, know it's fickleness and foibles, make peace with it's subtle or slight nuances...

My point is that the gun and the man need to meld... Don't listen to the harpee's that will try to do the modern thing...

They are no different than any modern salesman trying to upsell you into something you don't need nor want....those that do so by judging your gun ~ never seen it shot, nor handled it....aren't worth listening to.

Yet, these same seem to have such high opinions of themselves that they express their personal ignorance of the same...

They prove themselves - not friends at your campfire....

Do not waste your time on false friends...

Well Giz, it's not about knit picking, it's about using Killer's gun as an educational tool for new builders.

Moreover, IMHO, with the apparent flaws we can see, in addition to the nosecap being held in place with rubber cement, which is cheesy, at best, I gotta wonder what flaws there might be that we can't see.

Hanshi, no one criticized the selection of the Siler lock. It's the wide lock panel and the point of the tail of the lock panel being too high, for aesthetics.

The wide lock panel makes the gun look thicker than it is. It's all about the visual appearance of good proportion vs not so good proportion.

IMHO, a too tight rammrod needs to be thinned and tapered so's it will come out of the stock easily. If it sticks now, how tight will it be when the humidity hits in the summer, or worse, when trying to withdraw that stuck rammer in the rain during that hunt of a life time.

IMHO, a friend doesn't let friends build guns with poor architecture, design flaws, or too tight rammers. :wink:

God bless

 

[tg]

"Don't recall you posting that pic before..."

I have but it was several years ago, I sold it to fund my smoothbore passion.

 

[gizamo]

J.D.....

Your point is well taken. But I'm going to tack a different piece of the wind....

Look at the modern reproductions of many of the originals. The earliest gun that I own with platinum liners is in the later 1820's.

Yet I see folks here that have issue with a gun meant to represent a 1770's Flintlock and overlook the Chambers' et, al and all the other...examples that they try to hold a standard to.

Not about you and me, my friend. But sometimes I see folks that nitpic the details, and overlook the major build differences...

I don't mind that so much, until they apply their own modern tooling into the mix....

Guess I'm sayin' that not every maker was a master of the craft...witness some of the poorboys. And every area of the country had it's own unique schools'...

One standard does not fit all....