Early Brown Bess Musketoon Examples?

[Tacksman45]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone knows of any sources for examples of early British Land Pattern Musketoons from the 1720's through 1750's? I am trying to locate some examples for reference for a potential project. I am looking to see if anyone knows of any genuine examples of these that were actually manufactured during this time. If anyone could point me to any books or websites, or an extant examples I would really appreciate it. I know they made some shorter Besses later on, but I am specifically looking for earlier examples.

Thanks so much!
Tacksman

 

[cositrike]

Are we talking musket on or carbine. There were many carbines, but lots were of similar size to muskets. If you want a fairly definitive answer see: Pattern Dates for British Ordinance Small Arms, by DeWitt Bailey . 1997 Thomas Publications Gettysburg

 

[Tacksman45]

Are we talking musket on or carbine. There were many carbines, but lots were of similar size to muskets. If you want a fairly definitive answer see: Pattern Dates for British Ordinance Small Arms, by DeWitt Bailey . 1997 Thomas Publications Gettysburg

Thanks so much for your reply! What would be the difference between carbines and musketoons in 18th century terms? I will see if I can get this book on ILL. Thanks again!

Tacksman

 

[cositrike]

Thanks so much for your reply! What would be the difference between carbines and musketoons in 18th century terms? I will see if I can get this book on ILL. Thanks again!

Tacksman

Again, if you get DeWitts book, you will see musketoons, these tended to be/ look more like a blunderbus. Another book that shows some early carbines is ‘of sorts for provincials’

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
In 18th century parlance, musketoons and blunderbusses were very similar. Very short barrels and often a flared muzzle of some sort. As I and others wrote previously, the only identified British military versions were for sea service although there are references to others that may be for land service but no examples have been identified. There were very short barreled guns made for civilian coach drivers that were similar. Carbine meant something different. The photo below shows guns I've made, a British officer's fusil, a pattern 1760 light infantry carbine, and a pattern 1730/40 Brown Bess musket on bottom.

The fusils and carbines were smaller caliber, usually about 65 or 66 caliber, than muskets, usually about 75-76 caliber. They had shorter barrels, 36-42 inches, compared with muskets, 39-46 inches, depending on the patterns. They were more lightly built and weighed less. Officer's fusil were almost always privately purchased by the officer or his regimental colonel. Hence, they often looked like civilian fowling guns but always set up for a full sized bayonet and sling swivels. My fusil and carbine weigh about 8 lbs, whereas the musket weighs a little over 10 lbs. The terms fusil and carbine eventually came to mean about the same thing. Fusil is French for "gun" and came about during the early flintlock days when most troops were still armed with matchlocks. The flintlock mechanism was much safer around powder magazines and artillery ammunition than matchlocks with their burning matches. Consequently, the French army developed lighter flintlock "fusils" that armed "fusiliers", who were assigned to guard munitions and artillery. They were also used for special operations that required stealth and mobility. The other infantry armed with matchlock muskets were called "musketeers" and those with smaller "caliver" matchlocks were called "shots".

dave

 

[TFoley]

I realise that this is the wrong era of firearms, but here are the length ranges of British service arms - top three-band rifle, centre Short rifle, and bottom, carbine or musketoon.

 

[dave_person]

TFoley,
Did British ordnance actually call that short gun a "musketoon" rather than a carbine. If so, then by that time in the 19th century the meanings of terms carbine and musketoon were blurred together.
dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone knows of any sources for examples of early British Land Pattern Musketoons from the 1720's through 1750's? I am trying to locate some examples for reference for a potential project. I am looking to see if anyone knows of any genuine examples of these that were actually manufactured during this time. If anyone could point me to any books or websites, or an extant examples I would really appreciate it. I know they made some shorter Besses later on, but I am specifically looking for earlier examples.

Thanks so much!
Tacksman

Not a whole lot to add to what Dave Person and TFoley have already mentioned, but here's a little more.

The Brown Bess of the 1720's was called "The Pattern of 10,000" and had all IRON furniture, but NONE were made to musketoon/carbine length

Predden flintlock musket, 1715 (c) | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London (nam.ac.uk)

NOTE: The following links don't seem to allow web capture, BUT they do allow you to enlarge the pics to really see them well. ALSO, NONE were made in musketoon/carbine length.

Next was the Pattern 1730 Land Service Musket
Pattern 1730 Land Service Musket – Results – Search Objects – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Next was the Pattern 1730/40 Land Service musket
Pattern 1730/40 Land Service musket – Results – Search Objects – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Next was the Pattern 1742 Land Service Musket
Pattern 1742 Land Service Musket – Results – Search Objects – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

There were two additional Patterns the 1748 and the 1756 BUT NONE of them made it over here in the 1750's. The FIW was fought primarily with the latter two muskets, plus Dutch made arms and other contractor "Made for the Trade" Muskets, as well as captured French Muskets.

If you can be more specific about your potential project, we can give more specific help.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

TFoley,
Did British ordnance actually call that short gun a "musketoon" rather than a carbine. If so, then by that time in the 19th century the meanings of terms carbine and musketoon were blurred together.
dave

Hi Dave,

British Ordnance did not use the term "Musketoon" until the Percussion Period, from everything I've studied.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone knows of any sources for examples of early British Land Pattern Musketoons from the 1720's through 1750's? I am trying to locate some examples for reference for a potential project. I am looking to see if anyone knows of any genuine examples of these that were actually manufactured during this time. If anyone could point me to any books or websites, or an extant examples I would really appreciate it. I know they made some shorter Besses later on, but I am specifically looking for earlier examples.

Thanks so much!
Tacksman

Now if you wish to talk British CARBINES of that time period, I've got more info. However, most Carbines were issued to the "Regular Soldiers," though we do have documentation for some use by American Ranger Units.

Gus

 

[TFoley]

TFoley,
Did British ordnance actually call that short gun a "musketoon" rather than a carbine. If so, then by that time in the 19th century the meanings of terms carbine and musketoon were blurred together.
dave

Dave, I really don't know, but the term musketoon was certainly used during your recent war between the states. In Britain, the term used for very short 'long-arms' like these was a carbine - as found in the name of a number of regiments of the British Army, even recently. My own grandfather was in the 6th Dragoon Guards [Carabiniers] in WW1. I've always found it interesting that the rifles on the cap badge look like Mausers!

 

[Artificer]

Dave, I really don't know, but the term musketoon was certainly used during your recent war between the states. In Britain, the term used for very short 'long-arms' like these was a carbine - as found in the name of a number of regiments of the British Army, even recently. My own grandfather was in the 6th Dragoon Guards [Carabinieres] in WW1. I've always found it interesting that the rifles on the cap badge look like Mausers!

View attachment 137400

Yep, just pulled out my copy Bailey's "British Military Longarms 1715-1865." They don't use the term "Musketoon" at all. It seems "Musketoon" was an American term and not British at all.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

My own grandfather was in the 6th Dragoon Guards [Carabinieres] in WW1. I've always found it interesting that the rifles on the cap badge look like Mausers!

Guess it is too late to flog the artist, eh?

Gus

 

[TFoley]

Guess it is too late to flog the artist, eh? Gus

Well, that's the artist's graphic version of the cap badge, the real thing - from WW1 [but not my grandfather's], looks slightly more like the carbine he might have actually carried - prototype forbidden to be shown here. You CAN see the cap badge though.

Here it is on his gravestone - Plot 1, Row B, Templeux-le-Guérard Military Cemetery, The Somme.

His pal, who was killed with him in the same night barrage on 21/22 June 1917, is buried beside him.

Centre row - far left - the first marker. Last time I went to see him I left him a set of my stars and crowns and a collar dog... I think he would have been proud of me.

 

[cositrike]

Yep, just pulled out my copy Bailey's "British Military Longarms 1715-1865." They don't use the term "Musketoon" at all. It seems "Musketoon" was an American term and not British at all.

Gus

DeWitt uses the term in patent dates for British ordnance small arms

 

[Artificer]

DeWitt uses the term in patent dates for British ordnance small arms

Yep, Pattern Dates and the names of the pieces as well.

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Go to pages 195-196 in Bailey's "Small Arms of the British Forces in America". He discusses musketoons and blunderbusses.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve only seen one reproduction and it was a tough project, the stock was a modified first model stock, the lock and furniture were parted out from Reeves Ghoring, the lock was a filed down pedersoli grice lock remarked Dublin Castle. The barrel was designed by Ed Rayl, Ed modified a blunderbuss pattern to a smaller diameter tapered and flared barrel.

The fella who owned it was a reinactor, who I’ve since lost touch with, if i can find him I’ll ask for photos.

It resembled the 1740 Dragoon Carbine without the saddle bar and much shorter.

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,
Go to pages 195-196 in Bailey's "Small Arms of the British Forces in America". He discusses musketoons and blunderbusses.

dave

Thank you, Dave and cositrike, as well.

I did not realize it was a British Ordnance term for what we would usually call a blunderbuss and it seems nearly always used by Naval Forces only.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone knows of any sources for examples of early British Land Pattern Musketoons from the 1720's through 1750's? I am trying to locate some examples for reference for a potential project. I am looking to see if anyone knows of any genuine examples of these that were actually manufactured during this time. If anyone could point me to any books or websites, or an extant examples I would really appreciate it. I know they made some shorter Besses later on, but I am specifically looking for earlier examples.

Thanks so much!
Tacksman

Back to what I think may be your area of interest, as you used the adjectives "Land Pattern" in your question.

I'm still not sure if you are talking about a shortened Land Pattern Bess in Musket Bore of .76 cal. (that actually varied from .76-.78 caliber as originally made) OR if you mean what for all intents and purposes looks like a scaled down Land Pattern Bess, but is of what British Ordnance began to settle as the "Carbine Bore" of .65 cal. in the later half of the 1750's and more or less commonly called that from the 1760's onward. Up to that time, they used the term "Carbine" more from the length of the barrel and not so much the caliber.

For example and it may seem strange to us, the Pattern 1744 Carbine for Dragoons was supposed to be of "Musket Bore of .76" and the only reason they called it a "Carbine" was the barrel was "only" 42" in length compared to the normal Musket Barrel length of 46". Here are the specifications from the Royal Armouries:
Flintlock muzzle-loading musket - Pattern 1744 Dragoon (dated 1747) - Royal Armouries collections

This link shows one made to that general Pattern.
Light Dragoon Carbine – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

To further confuse the issue, some of them were in the slightly smaller bore size of .70 and with only a 37 1/2 inch barrel length.
Dragoon Carbine – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Here is a VERY SHORT barreled Carbine in the time period you are asking about, but still in Musket Bore. Please note is has NO entry thimble, so it is not a "cut down" Long Land Pattern Musket and actually made that way when new.
Cavalry Carbine – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Now if you are interested in a true Carbine Bore of .65 cal. (which often actually ran from .64-.66 cal.) that was used here in the period you mentioned, then there's the P 1744 "Carbine for Horse" or Cavalry Carbine with a 37 inch barrel. These had the early banana shaped locks and a sliding ring bar for a cavalry sling.

However, some of these were modified and became the P1748 Carbine. Bailey notes that in 1748, some P1744 Carbines were modified for Infantry by cutting the stocks back for the bayonet, soldering a new sight, taking off the sling bar attachment and filling in the stock as needed, then adding "standard" Infantry Sling Swivels. I believe these were the Carbines that the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment was armed with when they got here early in the FIW.

Then there was there was the P1756 Carbine that made it here in quantity during the FIW primarily with Highland Regiments, but to a lesser extent with Artillery and issued to some Serjeants. It had the new P1755 flatter bottom, double bridle lock, Carbine bore of .65, 37 inch barrel length and perhaps of special note, was the first and really only arm here in quantity that was made for the new Iron/Steel Rammer.

I don't know if you would like information on use of "cut down" muskets for your project?

OK, I hope this helps, but you will need to respond if it doesn't meet your needs for your project

Gus