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Double sided knives

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Just a side line, HBC sold a lot of dags, big fat dagger that could double as a fighting knife or a lance point. A white man may have carriered one, but I can't think of any that were known to be owned or carried by whites. I don't know what to think about that.
 
On the dag:

The dag was fashioned after the large stone spear points. It was strong and could be used for heavy chopping, as a spear point, a utility knife, skinning and butchering, a spear point and as a weapon. They were shipped to North America from Europe by the barrel load. There were also made by resident blacksmiths in the trading posts. They were traded without handles. The handles were usually ornate and made of wood and often tacked. Some beautiful knives were made with a bone handle with a serrated copper ring at the top for a scrapper. They are often seen with a universal "circle" and "dot" design in the bone. They most have been very common in the mid 1800's as early explorers noted natives wearing them with a thong attached to their wrists. They are often marked with a makers name such as "Jukes Coulson, Stokes & Co." or "IS" for John Sorby. Some very desirable dags are marked with a "Circle" and "Sitting Fox" design which was traded by the North West Company. They are also known as the "Columbia River Knife", in some areas it was called a "Beaver Tail Knife".
http://www.thespiritoftheoldwest.com/AAA-FurTrade.htm

Some other thoughts. Perhaps the American traders we have records for were not to keen on supplying good fighting knives to the natives. Butcher knives were tools, fighting knives were mostly weapons. Also, since most white trappers would have bought their rifles before leaving for the mountains, it stands to reason they would have also bought their fighting knife before leaving for the mountains, not from a trader unless they lost theirs in some way.
 
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tenngun said:
Just a side line, HBC sold a lot of dags, big fat dagger that could double as a fighting knife or a lance point. A white man may have carriered one, but I can't think of any that were known to be owned or carried by whites. I don't know what to think about that.

Had to re-boot my memory on Dags, as I have not seen one in 35 to 40 years and I don't believe I ever saw an original. The repro's back then looked like they were way too thick to be used for any kind of skinning or butchering and really only suited for a Lance Point. Might have been the repro's back then were thicker than the orginal Dags?

Gus
 
Dagger1.jpg


Dagger2.jpg
 
Dags are one of the great looking artifacts that might be worth changing your persona just to tote one around. The Museum of the Fur Trade had Russell make up some dags for them- maybe 10 years ago. I think they sold all of them but I'm not sure. They had the 7" and the 9" blades and claimed the 7" blade was most common. I might be getting my dags and bayonet knives confused but I think Hansen at the MFT said most replica dags are way too thick. The MFT "Cutlery Sketch Book" has some dag information.
Jim Beckwourth lived with the Crow a while and speaks of his white handled knife. I figured the white must have been bone- now I'm wondering if the knife was a bone handled dag.
And.....I might be wrong but I think the Hudson's Bay Company up in Canada (Now Northern Stores?) was still selling dags as recent as 20 years ago. They also were still selling crooked knife blades- you put on your own handle. I have no idea nowadays what has become of the old HBC.
 
Those are good photos. On the dags it looks like there is a middle spine and edge bevel while the bayonet look flat and likely thinner than the dag. The museum of the Fur Trade would surely know the thickness.
 
when we lived in Vermont, my wife and I used to go up to Montreal to visit our son. There was a huge Hudson's Bay Company store on rue Ste-Catherine Ouest (West St. Catherine Street) in Montreal which had both above ground and underground shopping. A lot of Montreal had what looked like malls underground so you didn't have to walk from shop to shop exposed to the brutally cold weather you can get up there in the winter. So they're still around.

Twisted_1in66:thumbsup:
Dan
 
the basic differences between these two types of trade knives: a dag and a bayonet courtesy Museum of the Fur Trade's Cutlery Sketchbook. The thicknesses are noted. These types of blades were marketed as both a spear/lance point, a knife, or war club blade.

dag-hbc.jpg


dag-bayonet.jpg


These style blades are also the most common type identified with the bear jawbone knives carried by certain warriors in the Blackfoot, Plains Cree, and Assiniboine tribes.
 
I think after the scalper a dag or bayonet was one of the most common types of knives used by native peoples. I think Charles Larpenteur wrote about a group that got into a trading post with dags up their sleeves and did someone in. IAE- I'm pretty sure they were a very common knife.
 
I like the "Frontier" shoes. Well polished and what looks like kilties and thin soles shown in the second picture.
 
That is great information. It looks like the bayonet would make a great knife blade. Much thinner, and with a nice taper, like two french chefs knives back to back.

Where it says some were made with blades 12 inches or more long, and 4 1/2 inches wide; that would even put some of those Hollywood knives to shame.
 
This an Osage gunstock warclub - the overall length is 30" so you can see the blades could be very large at times.

gswarclub-002.jpg


As for popularity amongst the Natives - they seem to have been popular amongst some of the Northern Missouri Plains tribes, but aren't found often amongst the Central and Southern plains tribes.
 
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