Copper saddle rivets

[Flintlock]

Can anyone tell me when the copper saddle rivets like we see today became available.

 

[necchi]

That's a darn good question!
I can't count how many times I've seen item's for sale, asking big prices for some "olde timey" piece,,
That uses copper saddle rivets, when the install of said rivets is completely butchered!!
Guy's! it's OK to cut a saddle rivet!! And for crying out loud! Use the proper technique!!

 

[Eterry]

Google says Levi Strauss patented them in 1873 for use on his jeans.
Done properly they will hold up for decades, done improperly, a few years.

We used them for saddle and harness repair, but you need more tools than with the newer press rivets.

Pre-internet they were hard to find. Haven't looked for years.

 

[Artificer]

Can anyone tell me when the copper saddle rivets like we see today became available.

Depends on what type. Hollow end rivets are fairy modern.

However, solid end rivets go way, way back to at least the 17th century and probably back as far as Roman Times. Iron Rivets were the most common, though copper and brass were also used.

Gus

 

[Notchy Bob]

Tubular rivets, most notably cutler's rivets as used on knife handles, were patented by an American inventor named Mellen Bray in about 1878. I'll need to look up the date to make certain, but it was about then. However, I think the OP is asking about the copper "rivet and burr" devices. I have been curious about this very thing, and so far have been unable to find when they were first introduced. I have gotten the impression that they are a much older style.

I have seen these used on knife sheaths and harness in western museums and online collections, but most of these seem to date from the last half of the 19th century. Interestingly, these rivets are normally seen installed with the flat or finished rivet head on the back side of the article, and the washer or "burr" with the neatly-peened rivet shank visible on the outside.

I'm looking forward to reading additional responses, and will research this more myself.

Notchy Bob

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think this is what @Flintlock is asking about:

This is the copper "rivet & burr" to which I referred in my previous post. Dr. Hanson shows what appear to be rivets like these on a circa 1835 California saddle from the Museum of the Fur Trade, in The Mountain Man's Sketch Book Vol. II, page 43. Hard to be sure, but that's what they appear to be.

I sketched this old sheath in a southeastern Montana museum in 2006:

In fairness, I think this sheath probably dated from the third quarter of the 19th century. It was quite large, roughly 3.5" by 12", and it held several (4 or 5) old knives. It was made of commercial leather which, incidentally, was available for sale in the western trading posts. It was held together with nine copper rivets, like those shown above, which I attempted to represent in my sketch. I'm not sure about the little dots in between the rivets. These may have been holes that originally had brass tacks. The initials "RRH" and the horizontal bar under them were deeply tooled into the leather. I think this was probably intended as a storage sheath, judging from its size, the simple thong "dangler" without other provision for hanging from a belt, and the fact that it still held multiple old butcher knives.

This next sheath was previously owned by an important Cheyenne man named Big Back, and probably dates from the 1870's:

Provenance on this sheath is very good. An original accession tag is pictured there with it. The sheath is made from commercial leather, and has alternating rivets and either tacks or studs holding it together. There is a simple tooled or incised design around the throat of the sheath.

Anyway, in a quick search, that 1835 California saddle is the earliest example I've found for these rivets, but that would place their use well within the "mountain man era." I kind of suspect they may have been used even earlier, but more research is needed to verify that.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Artificer]

I think this is what @Flintlock is asking about:

View attachment 91988

View attachment 91989

This is the copper "rivet & burr" to which I referred in my previous post. Dr. Hanson shows what appear to be rivets like these on a circa 1835 California saddle from the Museum of the Fur Trade, in The Mountain Man's Sketch Book Vol. II, page 43. Hard to be sure, but that's what they appear to be.

I sketched this old sheath in a southeastern Montana museum in 2006:

View attachment 91990

In fairness, I think this sheath probably dated from the third quarter of the 19th century. It was quite large, roughly 3.5" by 12", and it held several (4 or 5) old knives. It was made of commercial leather which, incidentally, was available for sale in the western trading posts. It was held together with nine copper rivets, like those shown above, which I attempted to represent in my sketch. I'm not sure about the little dots in between the rivets. These may have been holes that originally had brass tacks. The initials "RRH" and the horizontal bar under them were deeply tooled into the leather. I think this was probably intended as a storage sheath, judging from its size, the simple thong "dangler" without other provision for hanging from a belt, and the fact that it still held multiple old butcher knives.

This next sheath was previously owned by an important Cheyenne man named Big Back, and probably dates from the 1870's:

View attachment 91991

View attachment 91992

Provenance on this sheath is very good. An original accession tag is pictured there with it. The sheath is made from commercial leather, and has alternating rivets and either tacks or studs holding it together. There is a simple tooled or incised design around the throat of the sheath.

Anyway, in a quick search, that 1835 California saddle is the earliest example I've found for these rivets, but that would place their use well within the "mountain man era." I kind of suspect they may have been used even earlier, but more research is needed to verify that.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I don't have a way to show a pic of one of several British Waist Belt Bayonet Frogs excavated at the FIW Fort Loudoun in PA. So pardon me for using pics of a repro below:

Waistbelt Frog

Waistbelt Frog front.

These pics show an extremely accurate repro of the frog, though the originals excavated mostly had Iron Rivets and Burrs, which were less expensive than Copper. What is really fantastic about this repro, though, is they accurately copied the original stitching.

Though I can't document this, I think the Copper Riveted ones were used by British Officers when they carried Officer's Fusils and Bayonets, during at least as early as the FIW, as seems to be shown in this portrait of Captain Campbell.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

BTW, the original Rivets and Burrs on those frogs were also a bit smaller in diameter.

When I made copies of these Waist Belt Frogs, I was able to find a more correct diameter size for both, though I admit I used Stainless Steel ones, because the Iron or Plain Steel ones rust so easily. However, no one could/can tell they were stainless by just looking at them.

I can't document how early the British used these Burrs and Studs on Frogs like this, because once I found the documentation for the FIW, that was early enough for me. I THINK they were also used with Bayonets for the P1730 Brown Bess Muskets, though. These Frogs were used by the British beyond the Napoleonic Wars.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

BTW, just found a pic of an original AWI Enlisted Man's Waist Belt Frog here and you can see the rivets and burrs on it:

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Now as far as I know and FWIW, these rivets and burrs were not used on Knife Sheaths in the 18th century, but some do show up on 19th century "fold over" belt knife sheaths during the Fur Trade era. I've seen pics, but since I stopped doing that period of re-enacting 40 years ago, I can't remember the sources of those pics. Sorry.

Gus

 

[Notchy Bob]

Outstanding, Gus!

The copper rivets and burrs are available in smaller sizes, although they were hard to find until recently.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Artificer]

Outstanding, Gus!

The copper rivets and burrs are available in smaller sizes, although they were hard to find until recently.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Thank you.

Copper rivets and burrs were used extensively on UnCivil War soldiers' personal equipment, as well, though I think that is beyond the range of the OP's interest. I could find a large range of sizes in the 1980's when I was making a lot of repro leather goods and other period items that had them.

In the late 1990's when I "came back" to doing 18th century reenacting, I asked if there was updated info on the waist belt frogs from the mostly conjecture inspired ones made in the 1970's.

As it turned out, a good friend had detailed drawings from the ones excavated at Fort Loudoun, PA. This matched one found in an 1805 Ship Wreck previously known, but up till then we had no proof they went back to the FIW, outside the few people who knew about the excavated ones.

Gus

 

[Flintlock]

I think this is what @Flintlock is asking about:

View attachment 91988

View attachment 91989

This is the copper "rivet & burr" to which I referred in my previous post. Dr. Hanson shows what appear to be rivets like these on a circa 1835 California saddle from the Museum of the Fur Trade, in The Mountain Man's Sketch Book Vol. II, page 43. Hard to be sure, but that's what they appear to be.

I sketched this old sheath in a southeastern Montana museum in 2006:

View attachment 91990

In fairness, I think this sheath probably dated from the third quarter of the 19th century. It was quite large, roughly 3.5" by 12", and it held several (4 or 5) old knives. It was made of commercial leather which, incidentally, was available for sale in the western trading posts. It was held together with nine copper rivets, like those shown above, which I attempted to represent in my sketch. I'm not sure about the little dots in between the rivets. These may have been holes that originally had brass tacks. The initials "RRH" and the horizontal bar under them were deeply tooled into the leather. I think this was probably intended as a storage sheath, judging from its size, the simple thong "dangler" without other provision for hanging from a belt, and the fact that it still held multiple old butcher knives.

This next sheath was previously owned by an important Cheyenne man named Big Back, and probably dates from the 1870's:

View attachment 91991

View attachment 91992

Provenance on this sheath is very good. An original accession tag is pictured there with it. The sheath is made from commercial leather, and has alternating rivets and either tacks or studs holding it together. There is a simple tooled or incised design around the throat of the sheath.

Anyway, in a quick search, that 1835 California saddle is the earliest example I've found for these rivets, but that would place their use well within the "mountain man era." I kind of suspect they may have been used even earlier, but more research is needed to verify that.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Thanks Notchy, Exactly what I was looking for. My books and some web searches only went back to 1858 on U.S. military saddles. Thanks again.

 

[LongWalker]

Rivets with a burr have been in use since at least Roman times. They were used on leather work, armor, and to hold clinker-built boats together.

 

[Philip Lebow]

Burr under your saddle?

 

[Billy Boy]

Shot Hamilton, didn’t he?

 

[Robby]

I didn't know that washer like thing was called a burr. I always seemed to run short of those and when pennies were still copper, one cent, a drill and tin snips would work in a pinch.
Robin

 

[Red Owl]

I've always called them harness rivets. The are pc for the mountain man era.. There is been (to me) an issue on what is shown in the Miller paintings- jus a dot. It could be a brass tack, harness rivet or a lead slug hammered out. Maybe a little of all of tem.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I didn't know that washer like thing was called a burr. I always seemed to run short of those and when pennies were still copper, one cent, a drill and tin snips would work in a pinch.
Robin

I've heard these called "harness rivets," but dealers usually stock them as "rivets and burrs." I had always assumed that "burr" was just an old timey name for a washer, but I looked it up, and there's a difference. Here's what I found"

"Burrs have tighter inside diameters than typical washers to fit tightly on rivets of different sizes. Burrs are positioned over the rivet shank. Use a hammer on the end of the rivet to secure the burr in place. This tight fit helps to keep the rivet from pulling out of the burr when assembled."

My dad showed me how to use these many years ago, and after my wife and I got horses of our own, I had the opportunity to use a good many of them for repairing tack. Horses can be very destructive. I have a complete set of issue US Navy rivet setting tools, but really, all you need is a short piece of half inch hardwood dowel, some nippers, a light hammer, and a flat anvil of some sort. Bore a hole in the end of the dowel just big enough for the rivet shank. Punch holes in your leather, push the rivet through from the back, set the burr on the shank, lay the workpiece rivet head side down on the anvil, then place the dowel with the hole in it over the shank and burr, and use the hammer to tap the burr down tight against the leather. Cut the rivet shank off with the nippers. Cut it pretty close... 1/16" is plenty. Tap the cut end of the shank to spread it. You can use a ball-peen hammer to try to make the cut end dome-shaped, but it is easier and looks better just to flatten the end slightly, just enough to spread it so the rivet won't pull out, and to flatten the cut end so it looks neat. Tap, tap, tap... Multiple light taps work better than a few forceful hits. The cut end of the rivet shank, after peening, will be slightly proud of the burr. Don't try to hammer it flush. The devil himself couldn't pull one of these apart if you do it right.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Red Owl]

I was told to trim down the protruding rivet so it extends above the burr about the same as its diameter and then hammer it, ball peen- it down over the burr.
I wanted to mention that after 1840 a lot of harness makers in the West would add to their income by making up belts, cartridge belts, holsters, spur leathers, etc. Since a lot of mountain men were outfitted in St. Louis, etc. I am thinking the same thing existed there. If you look at NDN sheaths from the 1870's the use of brass tacks is seen so there is an assumption the sheaths of the mountain men pre-1840 used brass tacks. Could be but hard to tell for sure. Or, as I said, maybe both tacks and harness rivets were used.