Charleville Musket Identification Help Please!

[thedouble11]

Hello all,


My name is Robert, and yes, I am new to the forum. I am looking to get into the hobby, and I recently purchased my first musket. I believe it is mostly a French Charleville that has a mix of parts. I am having a little trouble identifying the markings on it. The marking on the barrel is an "English" looking crown with a fleur-de-lis, and the letters "C E." I know you can't really see the letters in the picture, so you will just have to take my word for it. I bought a couple books (French Military Small Arms and The History of Weapons of the American Revolution), but I can't seem to find the exact markings on my musket.


Any help would be greatly appreciated, including what books could help me out. If you need anymore pictures or need me to check on any of the musket's features, just let me know.


Thanks,

Robert

 

[Artificer]

Hello Robert,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not nearly as good with 18th French Muskets as I am with British Muskets, so I often use the link below to help identify French Muskets.

It appears to me you have a Model 1728 French Musket that was restocked with a straighter stock than original and had a rear sight added, maybe at the same time it was restocked, though it may have been added later. The Lock, Trigger Guard and side plate are all M 1728. The U.S. Surcharge on the lock plate denotes at one time it belonged to the National or State Governments from the Revolutionary War period or later.

http://www.ladybemused.com/jaeger/NRA/The Revolutionary Charleville.htm

You musket may have been captured when New England British American Troops captured Fortress Louisbourg in 1758 or it may have come over as a gift from the French Government very early in the Revolutionary War. Sometime later it was restocked and the U.S. surcharge and front sight added.

Sorry, I don't have books covering French barrel View or Touch Marks, so I can't help you there.

Gus

 

[thedouble11]

Gus,

Thanks for the information! I truly appreciate it. That's a great link.

Robert

 

[DaveC]

Hello and welcome/ Howdy from San Antonio, TX!

Great musket! For comparisons, here is the U.S. Army museum's Delaware-provenance Model 1728 musket:
https://armyhistory.org/french-infantry-musket-m1728-charleville/

Are there sling swivels on your musket? If so, were they mounted on the bottom like the Model 1754, or are they on the side like the Model 1746 and earlier?
The U.S.-marked lockplate is very cool! Good luck with the markings... Likely as not, some sort of early French proofs... The P.I. sure is interesting on the stock, no? Wonder if it refers to a state, like Pennsylvania, say, or if it is a person's initials...?

 

[thedouble11]

Thanks Dave!

The sling swivels are on the bottom like a 1754. Yes, the PI is very interesting. I have wondered the same things about it, or if it is some inspector's mark.

Robert

 

[Artificer]

Sometime later it was restocked and the U.S. surcharge and front sight added.

Ooops, that was a typo. I MEANT to type rear sight. Sorry.

You are most welcome.
Gus

 

[Flintlock1640]

I think the stock is original. It is cracked above the lock so the lines do not drop as they should. It looks like a model 1754. Can you add better pictures of the barrel bands? It has been messed with some. The cock screw is way too small and the screws on the frizzen and frizzen spring look modern. Could be a reconversion. Also the 1754 sling swivel on the trigger guard is one loop instead of connecting with a flat. This is from the 1777 an IX. Hopefully the middle band is correct. The 1754 triggerguard also should not have a screw forward of the sling swivel. Except for the lock screws the other changes appear period. I would like to see the whole side plate area. Sometimes there are markings in the stock right of the side plate. Nice French barrel marking. I don't know CE right off.

 

[thedouble11]

Thanks a lot for the information Flintlock. I can't find anything on the stock... Here are those extra pictures of the barrel bands and the right of the side plate.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Flintlock1640]

Thank you for the additional pictures. If you look at your last picture there are two fill marks right of the side plate. The upper is where the sling swivel originally sat on the side of the stock. It is a model 1728 with modified trigger guard sling swivel and a 1777 an IX middle band. Very nice piece. Easy to restore if you wish.

 

[thedouble11]

No problem, thank you! Would you recommend restoring it? And how much do you think it would run me?

 

[Flintlock1640]

If it were me I would restore it. The sling swivels can be no older than 1800 so they are a relatively modern addition and a true 1728 is a rare cookie. Of course it is perfectly presentable the way it is until you can find the parts you need. therifleshoppe.com carries reproduction parts so you can go that route until you can find originals which will take some time. The trigger guard may very well be original and just a cutout made for the sling swivel. It would be relatively easy to make a side swivel beside the lock as it was just a bolt with a nut and a round swivel beside it.

 

[DEROS]

If it were me I would restore it. The sling swivels can be no older than 1800 so they are a relatively modern addition and a true 1728 is a rare cookie. Of course it is perfectly presentable the way it is until you can find the parts you need. therifleshoppe.com carries reproduction parts so you can go that route until you can find originals which will take some time. The trigger guard may very well be original and just a cutout made for the sling swivel. It would be relatively easy to make a side swivel beside the lock as it was just a bolt with a nut and a round swivel beside it.

Robert--What you have is a French 1754 Infantry Musket. It does not need to be restored leave it as is. It is a very historical weapon Crown over "C E" is for the French Arsenal at Charleville. It has been reconverted, but so what. The front band of the M1728 was much smaller.

The "US" on the locks of American owned weapons of the Rev War Period was stamped per order of Gen George Washington.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Interesting the way that source is laid out. It is very confusing. On a heading for the 1754 it has a photo of a 1746 which is just the updated 1728. Biggest difference between the 28, and 46 is cost-saving shortcuts for wartime such as a non-bridled frizzen. The sling swivel is absolutely in the wrong place for the 1728 and there is nothing wrong with that front band. There was a lot of variety in the parts. The 1746 band was no different from the 1728 and looks no smaller in the source directly above. In all likelihood, the sling arrangement has been this way 200 years so it is entirely up to you to keep it the way it is or to make it correct.

 

[DEROS]

Robert--A friend of mine sent three sheets, one each for the M1728, M1746, and M1754. I'm passing them on without comment.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Battleweapons is a good source. They try very hard to show standard models. The actual original sizes of each of the bands can very quite a bit. I would not feel comfortable saying the front band has been replaced with a 1754 but I suppose it could have. There is zero reason to have the fill spot in the side of the stock above the trigger if your musket was not originally a 1728. That is my main point. I'm not trying to argue over one barrel band. All I was trying to say is the sling swivels have been moved from the side to the bottom. Yes, in essence, it was updated to a 1728. I use this analogy. In Boston, there is only one 17th century house left, the Paul Revere house. In the 18th century, it was a three-story house but it was decided to restore it back to the two-story original since it was the last survivor. Was the 18th century house historically important? Of course, but the earlier version was more so. Your musket is a very nice musket in and of itself. You can choose to leave it alone or you can restore it back to the unusual 1728. It isn't unique, but it is rare enough to find a good full length 1728 that I feel it is worth restoring. It is yours so that is your decision. Please don't restore it into a 1754. It just isn't that model.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Oops, sorry for the typo. I meant to say it was updated from 1728 to 1754. This was probably done early 1800s for the early Napoleon Wars when arms were running so low.

 

[Scrannel]

Hello. I don't want to jam the band width with pics, but would like to ID a Charleville musket that's been in our family since the end of WWII. My dad had a sporting goods store and he got every imaginable weapon traded in on fishing gear etc. Anyway my gun has "Charleville" written in a script type stamping on the right side of the lock. Very worn but discernable. Strap brackets do not swivel. (Also has a musket ball imbedded in the left side of the stock -- looks to be a pistol round). Also, there's markings on the left stock that looks sort of like "1 + F". Any notion what this is? I'll take some pics if you suggest areas of the gun to photo. Thanks

 

[hawkeye2]

Scrannel you would be much better off opening a new thread instead of riding on this one and we definitely need pictures, close up of the lock and any markings plus some overall photos.

 

[Scrannel]

Will do.

 

[toot]

WOW!! what a score you have! a real piece of history!! you are one luckie person.