Charleville lock

[Yankee]

. Greetings, I am new to the forum and also fairly new to flintlocks. I purchased a model 1768 Charleville musket from a friend. He was the original buyer from Veteran Arms. I have always had a problem being able to move the cock from half cock to full cock. I read a similar post and it sounds like his problem was solved by loosening the tumbler screw. I have tried that, but so far have been unable to break it loose and I don't want to bugger it up trying. I also noticed that the mainspring looks to be completely closed at half cock. No room for any more compression between the two sides of the spring. . I am wondering if this is also part of my problem?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Dan,
I posted a response in the other thread where you asked about your lock. So somebody actually wrote that they made their lock easier to cock by loosening the tumbler screw? OMG! What that implies is the shoulder on the tumbler upon which the cock is supposed to tighten against does not protrude above the lock plate. Therefore, when the flint cock tumbler screw is tightened, the cock is being pressed against the plate causing friction. The only fix for that is the whole plate must be thinned or a new tumbler made. How can anyone pass a red-face test selling such manure?

dave

 

[Artificer]

. Greetings, I am new to the forum and also fairly new to flintlocks. I purchased a model 1768 Charleville musket from a friend. He was the original buyer from Veteran Arms. I have always had a problem being able to move the cock from half cock to full cock. I read a similar post and it sounds like his problem was solved by loosening the tumbler screw. I have tried that, but so far have been unable to break it loose and I don't want to bugger it up trying. I also noticed that the mainspring looks to be completely closed at half cock. No room for any more compression between the two sides of the spring. . I am wondering if this is also part of my problem?View attachment 162820

Hi Dan,

Please don't take offense, but not everyone uses the same terminology.

When you mentioned loosening the tumbler screw, did you mean the screw that has the slot on the outside of the lock plate and around the lower part of the cock/hammer?

Yes, that mainspring being closed at half cock could well be another problem.

It also looks like the lower leaf of the sear spring is broken off and missing.

Gus

 

[Yankee]

Hi Dan,

Please don't take offense, but not everyone uses the same terminology.

When you mentioned loosening the tumbler screw, did you mean the screw that has the slot on the outside of the lock plate and around the lower part of the cock/hammer?

Yes, that mainspring being closed at half cock could well be another problem.

It also looks like the lower leaf of the sear spring is broken off and missing.

Gus

Hi Gus,

Thanks for responding.
The screw I was referring to as the tumbler screw is the interior screw. It is hard to see in the photo, but the sear spring is complete.

Dan

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,

Thanks for responding.
The screw I was referring to as the tumbler screw is the interior screw. It is hard to see in the photo, but the sear spring is complete.

Dan

OK, that is something else entirely. I think you mean the Bridle Screw? Below is an illustration to check.

It's very important we understand each other's terminology.


Gus

 

[Yankee]

Gus,

That is absolutely correct. I am speaking about the bridle screw. Thanks for the diagram.

Dan

 

[Artificer]

Gus,

That is absolutely correct. I am speaking about the bridle screw. Thanks for the diagram.

Dan

Great and you are welcome.

It is a very common problem that people tighten the bridle screw down too much, because they don't know they are not supposed to tighten that screw down snug/tight. This because on most repro locks, that screw is not "clocked" or "registered" because it costs too much to fit the bridle screws. What often happens when that screw is tightened down too far, the bridle is forced against the tumbler and makes it difficult to very difficult for the cock/hammer to move.

The way to ensure the bridle screw is not tightened down too far is when you put the bare bridle over the tumbler with no other parts installed yet. Then put the bridle screw in and begin tightening it down until you feel a little resistance as you normally feel when tightening screw. At that point, see if the tumbler and cock/hammer moves freely. If not, then keep backing the bridle screw off about 1/8 of a turn at a time until the tumbler and cock do move freely. YES the screw will seem not to be tightened down, but that is as far as you tighten it.

Then you put the sear and sear screw in place and essentially do the exact same thing with the sear screw. Tighten it and back it off 1/8 turn at a time until the sear moves freely. When done, neither screw will be snug, but they are tight enough for the lock parts to work.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

PS I can't even begin to say how many times I've run into this/these problems because owners over tightened these two screws, because they didn't understand the info above.

Gus

 

[Scota@4570]

Refer to the picture of the Siler lock above. If the "bridle screw" needs to be loose for the lock to function then it was not made and fitted properly. The bridle should be fitted such that is does not bind the tumbler if secured to the plate with the screw. What is the point of the bridle at all if it is not doing anything due to being loose on the plate?

The sear screw is a different issue and is often threaded to far and making it tight binds the sear.

Short answer is that you need the assistance of someone who knows how to work on flint locks. Tuning is necessary. That may involve adjusting the fit of the parts or making new parts. There is no way to give a pat answer over the internet.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
That should never happen. It should never matter how tightly the forward bridle screw is turned. Because if it does, it is also canting or cocking the bridle against the tumbler. The cheapest British export locks from the 18th century that included a bridle don't have that problem.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi Scota and Dave,

First, I agree that tightening the bridle screw should not make a difference on whether or not the tumbler binds on the bridle. Of course, that's when the inner flat of the bridle is parallel to the inside of the lock plate and has sufficient clearance for the bridle.

Having said that and in my experience with both percussion and flintlock military locks (especially with repro's, but not confined solely to repro's) I've seen many cases where tightening the bridle screw does indeed bind the tumbler. The poorer quality of the repro lock, the more common it was.

Now we three know that when the bridle screw is perpendicular to the lockplate, sometimes one can stone or worst case scenario file off any high spots on the inner flat of the bridle and/or the tumbler to correct this, but that can also lead to requiring either or both parts be re-heat treated and annealed or case hardening. Sometimes this problem is the fault of an off center tumbler pivot or tumbler hole through the lock plate.

I'm also in complete concurrence with Dave that on the really poor locks, one has to weld up the tumbler hole to drill/ream a hole of correct size and perpendicular to the lockplate and often replace many if not most of the interior parts to make a good lock.

Gus

 

[Rifleman1776]

. Greetings, I am new to the forum and also fairly new to flintlocks. I purchased a model 1768 Charleville musket from a friend. He was the original buyer from Veteran Arms. I have always had a problem being able to move the cock from half cock to full cock. I read a similar post and it sounds like his problem was solved by loosening the tumbler screw. I have tried that, but so far have been unable to break it loose and I don't want to bugger it up trying. I also noticed that the mainspring looks to be completely closed at half cock. No room for any more compression between the two sides of the spring. . I am wondering if this is also part of my problem?View attachment 162820

Not so expert an opinion here but I have seen and used more than a few locks over the past half century. I believe the only cure for this problem is a different lock. That would require some work inletting and fitting to your gun. It angers me that someone would actually make and deliver a product like that.

 

[sturmkatze]

Why not take it to a reputable gunsmith? Really. The Flintlock Doctor comes to mind. I'd say Dave, but he says he's too busy to take on new work.

Most times, if you don't know what you're doing, it's like doing surgery on yourself. Anyway, Them's be ma thoughts... What do I know?

 

[dave_person]

Why not take it to a reputable gunsmith? Really. The Flintlock Doctor comes to mind. I'd say Dave, but he says he's too busy to take on new work.

Most times, if you don't know what you're doing, it's like doing surgery on yourself. Anyway, Them's be ma thoughts... What do I know?

Hi Marsh,
We are working on that my friend. We are just waiting to see if Veteran Arms will fix it.

dave

 

[sturmkatze]

Hi Marsh,
We are working on that my friend. We are just waiting to see if Veteran Arms will fix it.

dave

Great. I would think he would. I've talked with him and he seems like he cares. Anyway, there are things I would do and things I wouldn't. Messing with lock geometry or springs, etc., uh no.

Thanks for your reply

 

[rickystl]

Glad I found this Thread. Nice to know about the bridle and tumbler relationship with the screw tension. Especially for the "hobbyist" - like me.

Rick

 

[FlinterNick]

I worked on a 1728 Charleville lock from Veteran arms, the internals ironically look very similar.

The lock would catch on halfcock from the full clock position.

The issue was the sear nose/beak was too long and too fat to engage the notches. I filed it down to fit the notches (and widened the notches) and that helped the sear engage the tumbler.

Among other issues, the internals needed a serious deburring and polishing. File marks were polished over on the tumbler thanks the action very rough. Lastly the internals needed to be hardened, not knowing what kind of steel they were made of, I cased the parts, got up to a Rockwell of 50/55.

The springs are another matter, the sear spring is not done well, position too low and would benefit from being moved higher and opening the bend reducing the trigger.

The mainspring was very similar, closed too narrow, a lot of pressure on the lower leaf. Lots of file marks on the spring too, it will eventually break.

I didn’t play with the springs, because I felt that the mainspring needed to be replaced entirely with a new spring.

 

[FlinterNick]

Not so expert an opinion here but I have seen and used more than a few locks over the past half century. I believe the only cure for this problem is a different lock. That would require some work inletting and fitting to your gun. It angers me that someone would actually make and deliver a product like that.

A new lock fitted to an indian musket is almost not an option with a completely assembled gun.

My advice is to take the plate, weld up the screw holes and start over with some quality internals and springs.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi Gus,
That should never happen. It should never matter how tightly the forward bridle screw is turned. Because if it does, it is also canting or cocking the bridle against the tumbler. The cheapest British export locks from the 18th century that included a bridle don't have that problem.

dave

Dave if the bridle binds up because of the bridle screw being too tight or dragging the other parts down, is that because the lock was not assembled in the correct prosecutes / steps? With the sear located and sear screw being drilled and tapped first then followed by the bridle screw last ?

 

[FlinterNick]

Great and you are welcome.

It is a very common problem that people tighten the bridle screw down too much, because they don't know they are not supposed to tighten that screw down snug/tight. This because on most repro locks, that screw is not "clocked" or "registered" because it costs too much to fit the bridle screws. What often happens when that screw is tightened down too far, the bridle is forced against the tumbler and makes it difficult to very difficult for the cock/hammer to move.

The way to ensure the bridle screw is not tightened down too far is when you put the bare bridle over the tumbler with no other parts installed yet. Then put the bridle screw in and begin tightening it down until you feel a little resistance as you normally feel when tightening screw. At that point, see if the tumbler and cock/hammer moves freely. If not, then keep backing the bridle screw off about 1/8 of a turn at a time until the tumbler and cock do move freely. YES the screw will seem not to be tightened down, but that is as far as you tighten it.

Then you put the sear and sear screw in place and essentially do the exact same thing with the sear screw. Tighten it and back it off 1/8 turn at a time until the sear moves freely. When done, neither screw will be snug, but they are tight enough for the lock parts to work.

Gus

Gus I was always under the impression that if a tight bridle screw was binding up the lock its because the bridle was drilled and tapped on before the sear was located and drilled and tapped, i could be wrong, but on two locks I assembled this ended up not being an issue because I drilled the bridle screw after having located and drilled the sear screw. The way I had understood Kit’s booklets, the bridle should almost be set on in a neutral position, not adding friction to the tumbler or sear.