Cast balls -vs- swaged?

[Roy]

Am I a good enough shot to tell the difference between a 1/2 grain light or one that is 2 grains light ? probably not but I still try to keep the variables to a minimum.

Thats it. Ever shoot a five shot group cutting a single hole then have a flyer? Was it me, was it the ball, did I compress the powder more, did I not see the sights the same??? By weighing we are taking out that one variable and saying "Yup it was me..." Personal experience I shoot better with balls that I have weighed, seem to get better groups. Could be all in my head... :youcrazy:, but if it is I am a better shot for it. :grin:

 

[roundball]

roundball: As you stated, there are a Lot of variables to consider.Why not eliminate the ones you can,especially for target work ? I tried the swaged balls and started weighing them. All that were within 1/2 grain of the heaviest I kept to use for target work all of the ones that were more than 1/2 grain light I melted down. I now cast my own. Am I a good enough shot to tell the difference between a 1/2 grain light or one that is 2 grains light ? probably not but I still try to keep the variables to a minimum.

I completely understand and respect that philosophy...and I used that approach to extremes for several years of reloading CF cartridges, weighing powder charges to the 1/10th of a grain, weighing bullets, measuring finished OAL with a micrometer, etc.

Personally, I intentionally decided not to bring my precision reloading mentality into the sport of muzzleloaders, and particularly now in shooting Flintlocks...considering that I am basically measuring Goex with a teaspoon in the first place...didn't want to try and force a grand old form of shooting into that sort of a modern environment...same reason I wouldn't use a 'duraflint', etc.

But at any rate, I know I'll never personally be such a consistently good shot that I'd notice something was wrong on that level...that my accuracy fell off because of a few grains variance in ball weight within a box of 100 Hornadys...if I get a single ragged hole, I'm completely satisified...don't care that it might be 2" instead of 1", etc

But I respect those who do...
:v

 

[Stumpkiller]

:hatsoff:
My hat's off to you if you can tell that you just fired a 230grn ball and it printed to a different POI due to it being a 1/2grn light on one side.

I can't imagine ever being able to do that...I have so many other variables in my powder measurement, seating compression, patch, lube, barrel fouling, temperature, humidity, etc, etc, from shot to shot that would mask over anything as insignificant as a 1/2grn weight on a ball that weighed 230grns to begin with.

:hatsoff:

Mebbeso, but if the 1/2 grain difference is caused by the mould being out of alignment or a wrinkle along one side things begin to fall apart. I enjoy casting, and rejecting a few balls doesn't diminish my lifestyle. They just go back in the sprue-can and are recast the next session. You don't know if it's off .5 grains or 15 grains until you weigh it, and I set up the beam scale on a TV tray and weigh a month's worth of shooting during the commercials on CSI: Las Vegas. :haha: If the beam doesn't rise it's a reject. If it only rises part way it's in the #2 can. If it's mostly centered it's a #1. If it goes above it's also rejected (rare, but it happens when the mould doesn't quite close).

I learned in traditional archery shooting that if you have confidence in your equipment you shoot better. :winking:

 

[jimeckersley]

On a small round ball with an internal air pocket near the outside edge, the ball will fly in a corkscrew motion. The longer the distance, the larger the diameter of the cork screw circle.

This is simply not true. When spin is imparted to a sphere, it will rotate around it's center of mass, not it's center of volume. It doesn't matter if the center of mass is not the center of volume, as with the case of a roundball with a void. The ball will find it's own center of mass, which becomes the center axis of rotation, and will rotate stably around that axis.

You can believe this or not, but it is basic physics and is really indisputable.

I agree with you on the ball spinning around it's center of mass. And if the center of mass is off the center line of the sphere, the ball will fly in an exagerated helical motion which becomes more exagerated with distance. You can purposely lighten a few balls on one side, or just use some of the lightest balls cast, then try them at 100yds to prove this to yourself.

OR, read: Dr. FW Mann's Book, `The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target.'

Actually, all bullets, including everything from High Power to artillery, fly in a corkscrew motion. A bench rest rifle capable of sub MOA accuracy obviously has a smaller corkscrew (helical) flight path around the trajectory.

With most recreational shooting, none of this makes any difference. I doubt that a White Tail cares if the ball weighed 230 or 229.5 But in a match against very competitive shooters, being aware of these factors can make the difference between a 50xx and a 50xxx.

 

Serious target shooters always get particular about the details, because fractions of an inch matter to them. The hunter/informal plinker most likely won't know the difference. I shoot Hornady balls and cast balls depending on what is available. If I get an occasional flyer it is usually because I jerked it or pushed it or let the barrel drop on a slight delay in ignition. I have never weighed a bullet, although I have miked a few. Because I am 'into' the more primitive aspects of MLing, I don't worry about the modern ideas of loads and ballistics. My crude measure charges variable amounts of powder and my lead pills are not weight calibrated. I still can put them in the bullseye at 50 yds when I do my part.

 

[harryo]

[Actually, all bullets, including everything from High Power to artillery, fly in a corkscrew motion. A bench rest rifle capable of sub MOA accuracy obviously has a smaller corkscrew (helical) flight path around the trajectory.

With most recreational shooting, none of this makes any difference. I doubt that a White Tail cares if the ball weighed 230 or 229.5 But in a match against very competitive shooters, being aware of these factors can make the difference between a 50xx and a 50xxx.

Yes, a bullet will follow a helical path after leaving the barrel because the barrel forces an out of balance bullet to rotate on it's center of volume and when leaving the barrel it makes a slight shift as it goes to naturally rotating on it's center of mass. However, it has been my understanding that the axis of the helical path of a bullet is so minute, that for all practical purposes, most just consider the bullet's path to be a straight line.

It's also my understanding that this effect increases with rotational speed of a bullet, so with the velocities and twist rates of a roundball shot from a muzzleloade, such an effect would be even less than a bullet fired from a high velocity, fast twist rifle. Also, doesn't the axis of the helical path usually decrease as a bullet travels downrange and the bullet "settles in"?

I think you said it right when you stated that for most purposes, it doesn't really matter much. I know that target shooters are looking for every edge but are any shooters so good that the miniscule effect of a slightly out of balance ball will be greater than any normal human error? Perhaps, the psychological edge of knowing that you have done everything possible to eliminate any mechanical variables has more of an effect than some variables themselves. I don't know. I'm just asking?

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've also observed that the gravitational effect of the Sun's pull causes my shots to stray. They invariavbly head torwards the shiny side of my front sight; which is Sunward. :winking:

 

[strongarm]

What many people won't tell you is that swagged balls can be off just as much as swagged and for target shooting it's best to measure the size of each ball and weigh them besides. A loose ball no matter close in weight to another will fly differently.

 

[Roy]

A loose ball no matter close in weight to another will fly differently.

Another question along the same lines would then patch thickness and how individuals load their guns be a factor in the size issue? I have seen people use a real tight patch and almost hammer down the ball with a range rod (makes it more interesting on a woods walk), Where I can almost thumb start a ball. Would they then be sizing the ball where I am not?

 

[jimeckersley]

[Actually, all bullets, including everything from High Power to artillery, fly in a corkscrew motion. A bench rest rifle capable of sub MOA accuracy obviously has a smaller corkscrew (helical) flight path around the trajectory.

With most recreational shooting, none of this makes any difference. I doubt that a White Tail cares if the ball weighed 230 or 229.5 But in a match against very competitive shooters, being aware of these factors can make the difference between a 50xx and a 50xxx.

Yes, a bullet will follow a helical path after leaving the barrel because the barrel forces an out of balance bullet to rotate on it's center of volume and when leaving the barrel it makes a slight shift as it goes to naturally rotating on it's center of mass. However, it has been my understanding that the axis of the helical path of a bullet is so minute, that for all practical purposes, most just consider the bullet's path to be a straight line. (1)

It's also my understanding that this effect increases with rotational speed of a bullet, so with the velocities and twist rates of a roundball shot from a muzzleloade, such an effect would be even less than a bullet fired from a high velocity, fast twist rifle. (2) Also, doesn't the axis of the helical path usually decrease as a bullet travels downrange and the bullet "settles in"? (3)

I think you said it right when you stated that for most purposes, it doesn't really matter much. I know that target shooters are looking for every edge but are any shooters so good that the miniscule effect of a slightly out of balance ball will be greater than any normal human error? Perhaps, the psychological edge of knowing that you have done everything possible to eliminate any mechanical variables has more of an effect than some variables themselves. I don't know. I'm just asking?

The problem with eliminating all the mechanical variables is that there's nothing else to blame bad shooting on but the guy doing the shoot'n.

There are other factors that create the helical bullet flight besides just uneven weight distribution, but we were originally talking about Cast vs Swaged and that mostly limits us to uneven weight, out of round and under or oversize balls. By the way, a friend of mine who used to win just about every match he entered, used swaged balls that he first weighed and then rolled around between two steel plates to put them back into round.

(1) You're right, most would consider the bullets flight a straight line. But, it only takes a fraction of an inch out to be scored outside the 10 ring regardless of our thoughts or intentions.

(2)That would probably be true of a long skinny, high sectional density bullet. The round ball has a higher percentage of it's mass away from the centerline and is more influenced by uneven weight distrubution than is the high sectional density bullet. Balls fired from a smooth bore wobble and flutter.

(3) Dr Mann in his book, above noted, actually set up paper at various intervals for the bullet to pass through. He measured significant deviance from the trajectory path and may have been the first person to note the helical nature of the bullets flight. Bullets of greater sectional density (not a round ball) will tend to "settle down after about 200 yards. The greater the sectional density, the more stable they are at long distances.

 

[Swampman]

"If you want consistent loads for target competition it isn't a waste of time."

It's a waste of time. It may make a difference in your head, but not on the paper.

 

All of this reminds me of a humor column that the late Ed Zern used to write for one of the outdoor mags...he did one on the effects of Coriolis Force [you know, the rotational force that causes, among other things, water to spin in opposite directions when a toilet is flushed from the northern to southern hemispheres] on wingshooting which was a very funny story--I wish I had kept a copy.

 

[harryo]

The problem with eliminating all the mechanical variables is that there's nothing else to blame bad shooting on but the guy doing the shoot'n.

Well we can't have that can we? :grin: I know when I miss, it has to be an equipment problem! :winking:

 

[harryo]

I've also observed that the gravitational effect of the Sun's pull causes my shots to stray. They invariavbly head torwards the shiny side of my front sight; which is Sunward. :winking:

Wow, I never even considered this! I've had the same problem. Thanks for pointing this out. :rotf:

 

[jimeckersley]

So, woodsrunner1778, You started all this discussion, was your question answered? :hmm:

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Ive used both, not much difference shooting.
Much more fun to make them, then shoot them.
Havent bought any for oh, 10 years or so.

PS: I do spin mine is a media and a rock tumbler,
so they smooth and uniform.

Excpet for the ones I make at rondy, depending which type of shoot Im at.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I use Hornady swaged balls. I can understand and agree about variances in ball weight, and variances in diameter. But~~after takin that poor innocent ball and drivin it down the barrel, then bouncin the ramrod to seat it, ya pulls the trigger. Off goes the powder and immediately about umpteen thousand pounds of force hit that ball and obiturate it into the rifling anyway. I just shoot em. If I miss, I try to figure out what I did that pulled the shot. Its much easier that way, and I sleep well.

Bill

 

[jimeckersley]

PS: I do spin mine is a media and a rock tumbler,
so they smooth and uniform. quote]

Warren Muzzleloading sells balls that have been tumbled too. Take a few of your cast balls and slice them in half. You'll find a small air pocket in most of them fairly close to the sprue.

The Bevel Brothers had a couple different articles about this in past issues of the Muzzle Blast. They also had recommendations on how to make the air pocket as small as possible when casting.

Anyway, the conclusion the Bevel Brothers reached is that it's best to load with sprue up. If you've tumbled the balls, they look pretty but you won't know where sprue (and air pocket) is.

 

[roundball]

PS: I do spin mine is a media and a rock tumbler,
so they smooth and uniform. quote]

Warren Muzzleloading sells balls that have been tumbled too. Take a few of your cast balls and slice them in half. You'll find a small air pocket in most of them fairly close to the sprue.

The Bevel Brothers had a couple different articles about this in past issues of the Muzzle Blast. They also had recommendations on how to make the air pocket as small as possible when casting.

Anyway, the conclusion the Bevel Brothers reached is that it's best to load with sprue up. If you've tumbled the balls, they look pretty but you won't know where sprue (and air pocket) is.

Good gracious...the Bevel Brothers article I read said spru position made no difference at all.

 

[rabbit03]

Well for my opinion, humble as it is, I think if your going to compare the two they would be equal at the bench. And as far as weighing the balls and sorting them, I find that my balls being unequal help me in my shooting. They act as automatic adjusters to my wiggling.

Me and ol John L. know a fellow that won the state championship with his culls cause he picked up the wrong can of balls. Yep culls, frosted balls, cavities and all. Knew a fellow that use to shoot marbles and kill kangaroos but then again I am from Texas

rabbit03